100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by aubergine » 11 Oct 2010, 14:46

@3drts - only because the screenies focus on the main part of the base. I'd attacked it several times with VTOLs and the AI had built up heaps of AA just off screen. They also had lots of ground troops capable of shooting at VTOLs. But yes, I've seen much better AA defended bases than that one.
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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by JDW » 11 Oct 2010, 17:51

aubergine wrote:Ah, here's the peaceful enemy base (indicated by white arrow on screen grab above) as the first wave arrives...
Image


I wouldn't want to be the one holding a peaceful base like that when you come by. :D
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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by Black Project » 11 Oct 2010, 18:16

j0shdrunk0nwar wrote:
aubergine wrote:Ah, here's the peaceful enemy base (indicated by white arrow on screen grab above) as the first wave arrives...
Image

I wouldn't want to be the one holding a peaceful base like that when you come by. :D
Eh, me too man, i would fell like a noob being blasted by hords of Heavy VTOLs with absolutely weak AA power :ninja:

BP :ninja:

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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by 3drts » 11 Oct 2010, 21:30

I have *NEVER* seen the AI build anything that comes close to an adequate AA defense.

You should play multiplayer on a high oil map.

If you don't have rows of whirlwind or storm bringer 4 deep, you are in trouble mid to late game.....

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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by aubergine » 11 Oct 2010, 21:44

I tried high-oil MP, I was overrun with ground units before I'd even researched anything to combat them lol. So I'm sticking to single player for now while I memorise the tech tree.

I've seen AIs build huge ground defences (eg. herds of radars and howitzers) if given enough time, but they only seem to build AA defence when and where they get attacked by VTOLs. So if they've not been attacked by VTOLs they have no air defence. On the map where these screenies were taken the outskirts of the base was regularly attacked by the other AIs VTOLs so there were some half decent AA defences.

TBH, the bulk of my VTOL damage came from loads of them deciding to land inside the enemy base where they were treated to a warm welcome by the enemy howitzers. IMHO, VTOLs should only ever land on rearming pads unless specifically instructed to land elsewhere.
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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by alto1234 » 11 Oct 2010, 21:46

aubergine wrote:I tried high-oil MP, I was overrun with ground units before I'd even researched anything to combat them lol. So I'm sticking to single player for now while I memorise the tech tree.

I've seen AIs build huge ground defences (eg. herds of radars and howitzers) if given enough time, but they only seem to build AA defence when and where they get attacked by VTOLs. So if they've not been attacked by VTOLs they have no air defence. On the map where these screenies were taken the outskirts of the base was regularly attacked by the other AIs VTOLs so there were some half decent AA defences.

TBH, the bulk of my VTOL damage came from loads of them deciding to land inside the enemy base where they were treated to a warm welcome by the enemy howitzers. IMHO, VTOLs should only ever land on rearming pads unless specifically instructed to land elsewhere.
learn how to micromanage
Last edited by alto1234 on 12 Oct 2010, 03:09, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by aubergine » 11 Oct 2010, 21:50

@alto - learn how to not be a troll *hugs*
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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by lav_coyote25 » 11 Oct 2010, 21:55

learn how to get along. no yelling or enticing to yell. keep it on low. :3 :)

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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by alto1234 » 12 Oct 2010, 03:10

aubergine wrote:@alto - learn how to not be a troll *hugs*
it's not trolling if i'm making accurate statements. your complaint stems from your inability to micromanage. improvement in that regard will ameliorate your problem.

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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by Black Project » 12 Oct 2010, 03:33

Please guys, keep your heads cooled down. Nobody here, especially the devs want this thread to become a flamewar.

alto1234, go easy with him, he'll learn to micro better later and start kicking butts of many players & please, don't take it extremely serious, Warzone, IMHO, is a wrong game to take things seriously.

Regards BP

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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by aubergine » 12 Oct 2010, 05:43

@alto - your advice is actually quite good, I've learnt a lot from it. Micromanaging VTOLs, especially queueing attack commands, is indeed very effective. It's just your way of conveying advice is a bit, erm, harsh... Maybe write something like "I've found that doing <whatever> is more effective because..." to put the information across in a more friendly manner?

But regardless of micromanaging, I'd love to see the VTOL bugs fixed - when they do successfully patrol they are a joy to watch. I doubt I'd use them that way in MP games, I'd get pwned, but in SP skirmishes I can't help but admire all the effort that's gone in to developing the game.
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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by alto1234 » 12 Oct 2010, 06:10

aubergine wrote:@alto - your advice is actually quite good, I've learnt a lot from it. Micromanaging VTOLs, especially queueing attack commands, is indeed very effective. It's just your way of conveying advice is a bit, erm, harsh... Maybe write something like "I've found that doing <whatever> is more effective because..." to put the information across in a more friendly manner?
thanks for trying, no thanks BECAUSE
bashing people over the head with sound advice more strongly compels them to consider it than were it presented in a supercilious, vague, and indecisive fashion. your new knowledge came about not only due to my advice, but just as much due to the manner in which i presented it. remember that.

in any case, as always, glad i could be of use. :augh:

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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by ScoBe » 12 Oct 2010, 06:57

... but never more battle effective than ordering them yourself, at least ordering by divisions (i.e. 5-6 at a time)
Sure but by my reckoning, the resource often in shortest supply in an advanced warzone match is attention, your own eyeballs and brain. Micro-manging will always win individual battles, but (I submit) it's not hard to find examples where it will loose you the game. To me the hard nut to crack in WZ strategy is finding tactics that scale: ways to do damage to the enemy---defend and even attack---without babysitting (so you can work elsewhere, micro-managing where it is unavoidable, or doing one of the many other things which require your attention.) As far as patrolling/circling VTOLs work for relieving some of this mental burden, I'm for it. It sounds like some bugs need to be worked out, but why not.

Great post. Keep it up. What happens if you tilt the balance even more (weaker VTOL bodies, dropping against better AA defenses)? Does it still show potential?

I love the formations.

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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by Jorzi » 12 Oct 2010, 09:21

alto1234 wrote: bashing people over the head with sound advice more strongly compels them to consider it than were it presented in a supercilious, vague, and indecisive fashion.
Remember that not everyone likes being treated this way. It is, in fact, a good way to make a discussion slowly degrade into a flamewar. You shouldn't push your advice down the throat of people, no matter how good it is, unless of course people ask for it. Either they choose to take it or they don't. After all, it's just a game, nobody gets hurt even if they would ignore your advice.

@aubergine: Nice screenshots :)
ImageImage
-insert deep philosophical statement here-

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Re: 100+ patrolling VTOLs vs. heavily defended enemy base :)

Post by aubergine » 12 Oct 2010, 11:52

<off-topic>

@alto - It's exactly the way I used to convey information, but I learnt that the approach backfires in subtle ways and in unexpected areas of life, sometimes with dire consequences (from personal experience). I've spent the last several years learning to present information in a different manner and I've almost come full circle... Being direct and concise is the way to go, but you need to wrap a little cotton wool around your delivery.

Have you heard of the acronym SARAH? It stands for "Shock, Anger, Rejection, Acceptance, Help" - the process people tend to go through when they are told their way of doing things is wrong, or when something threatens to invalidate their existing perception of the world (be it virtual, fantasy or real world).

When you bash people over the head with new information, it does tend to guarantee and emphasise the SAR elements of SARAH. And most people, due to being bashed, will not get to the AH part because they get hung up at the AR part (you made them Angry so they Reject what you are saying without thinking about it). So while your approach will work on people who are quite determined and open minded and incapable of quitting, it will actively backfire on most other people.

Furthermore, a high percentage of people that it backfires on will not give you any indication of the fact that they've rejected your assertion. (EDIT: This creates an invisible disconnect between your perception of the effectiveness of your technique and the underlying reality of the situation). They'll just bow down to the alpha male and quietly despise you while you're not looking. And because they are angry they'll start convincing other people to despise you as well, which is quite easy to do considering the abrasive approach you take - you'll be creating more 'enemies' for them to rally. Over time this leads to bad things. Not that important in a game community, you can just move on, but at work, social and relationship level it is a disaster waiting to happen.

By prefixing your assertions with "I found that doing <x> works better because of <y>..." you're still making the same assertion but in a manner that is evidently sharing insight and new tactics - a suggestion rather than an order, something that's far more effective as it helps avoid the whole SAR issue and lets people get to the AH part quicker.

It might be that the <y> part of the disclosure is too far ahead of the other person's thinking, so you sometimes need to make <y> an intermediate step, something that they can grasp more easily to get them on the right path. Then follow up with "... which means that <z>" (where <z> is the destination you want them to arrive at). The words "which means that" are chosen very specifically in that context, because if the other person does not believe the assertion "<y> means that <z>" they are not able to directly invalidate either <y> or <z>, they are forced to first argue that "<y> does not mean that <z>" (specifically they have to deal with the "which" in "which means that"). And that's something you can easily deal with whilst at the same time filling all their knowledge gaps and gaining their trust.

EDIT: And should they prove your assertion wrong, you don't look like a complete tit - because you were only making a suggestion. And the fact that you can therefore admit that they were right without losing face, makes you more personable to them and further strengthens their trust in you whilst at the same time allowing you to gain even greater insight in to the subject with which to help people in the future. It's a positive feedback loop, rather than a negative one.

The result is that you get the message across to a much wider audience and instead of people seeing you as arrogant or abrasive, they see you as a mentor because from their perspective you've helped them without shocking them or making them angry.

Here endeth the sermon.

</off-topic>

Normal service is resumed. Move along now, nothing to see here.
Last edited by aubergine on 12 Oct 2010, 12:16, edited 2 times in total.
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