Penny for a noob sir?

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dunk2k
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Penny for a noob sir?

Post by dunk2k » 08 Oct 2010, 16:07

As the subject names suggests, here to seek answers to some questions I've got about Warzone 2100.

Been recently playing through the campaign mode again, been a while since I last played it on the PSX many moons ago :D
Anyways, on with the questions;
  • 1) What practical Advantage's and disadvantages do the Assault Cannon and Hyper Velocity Cannon against each other- I'm finding the HPV cannon to be far more feasible than the Assault Cannon.

    2) Anyone feel that the family of flamer weapons could do with a small range increment. Have found them to be totally useless as both an offensive and defense weapon, due to them falling short of hitting a target before they get bammed/retreat for repairs.
    "Flamers are meant to be shortest range weapons" I hear you say, this tank would tell you other wise :lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rpEO3oiuos

    3) The family of mortar weapons are great early game, but once the Howitzers and Ripple Rocket are introduced, did anyone else find they become unused/obsolete? though the Pepperpot is a RoF beast and comes before the Hellstorm, it still doesn't pack the range or damage to be considered aggressively used when compared with the available in-direct options.

    4) You can attach in-direct units to a sensor to get the best firing range out of them, yet you can also attach in-direct units to a Commander and it does the same- pretty much making a sensor unit not worth bothering with if something with more hitpoints does the exact same job. Anyone feel that Commanders should not be allowed to have in-direct units attached to them and instead use "assign fire support" if they need in-direct force multiplier?

    5) Sensor Turret and Sensor Tower- the only difference I find in their usage is the Tower automatically fires on any enemy unit and structure within it's vast range, whilst the Turret requires you manually designate a target at longer ranges. This normal or am I doing something wrong here?

    6) Would mention something about path finding but I see from the development section that version 3 is dealing with that :P

    7) Is there some button I can press to get a visual indication, either on screen or on the mini map, the weapons range of a single or multiple units?
Hope I've got some good questions here that haven't been answered before?
P.S. am looking forward to improved graphics and, most importantly, improved path finding in v3.0
Last edited by dunk2k on 08 Oct 2010, 16:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Penny for a noob sir?

Post by NoQ » 08 Oct 2010, 16:19

1) What practical Advantage's and disadvantages do the Assault Cannon and Hyper Velocity Cannon against each other- I'm finding the HPV cannon to be far more feasible than the Assault Cannon.
HPVs have less ROF, more damage => better against heavily armored enemies. ACs have more ROF, less damage => more effective against lighter armor. ACs also have bigger splash damage radius.
4) You can attach in-direct units to a sensor to get the best firing range out of them, yet you can also attach in-direct units to a Commander and it does the same- pretty much making a sensor unit not worth bothering with if something with more hitpoints does the exact same job.
Commanders are much more expensive. They are very valuable. Pretty often you can afford losing a 60$ sensor tank for each artillery strike ;)
5) Sensor Turret and Sensor Tower- the only difference I find in their usage is the Tower automatically fires on any enemy unit and structure within it's vast range, whilst the Turret requires you manually designate a target at longer ranges.
Sensor tanks have ... err ... more priority for stationary artillery and --- most important --- they are mobile! They can run away from the enemy! They can attack the enemy in seconds, not in minutes needed to build a tower!

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Zarel
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Re: Penny for a noob sir?

Post by Zarel » 08 Oct 2010, 16:37

dunk2k wrote:1) What practical Advantage's and disadvantages do the Assault Cannon and Hyper Velocity Cannon against each other- I'm finding the HPV cannon to be far more feasible than the Assault Cannon.
AC does more damage and splash and has more HP. It's also lighter (and thus faster).

On the other hand HPV is longer-range (so can shoot structures from safer distances) and can shoot air units.
dunk2k wrote:2) Anyone feel that the family of flamer weapons could do with a small range increment. Have found them to be totally useless as both an offensive and defense weapon, due to them falling short of hitting a target before they get bammed/retreat for repairs.
"Flamers are meant to be shortest range weapons" I hear you say, this tank would tell you other wise :lecture: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rpEO3oiuos
That's still way lower range than a cannon or rocket. Warzone distances are shorter than real-world distances, that way everything can fit on the screen without being extremely tiny.
dunk2k wrote:3) The family of mortar weapons are great early game, but once the Howitzers and Ripple Rocket are introduced, did anyone else find they become unused/obsolete? though the Pepperpot is a RoF beast and comes before the Hellstorm, it still doesn't pack the range or damage to be considered aggressively used when compared with the available in-direct options.
Yeah, that's fairly intentional. Incendiary Mortar is still kinda useful, though, and you get it quite a long time before Incendiary Howitzer.
dunk2k wrote:4) You can attach in-direct units to a sensor to get the best firing range out of them, yet you can also attach in-direct units to a Commander and it does the same- pretty much making a sensor unit not worth bothering with if something with more hitpoints does the exact same job. Anyone feel that Commanders should not be allowed to have in-direct units attached to them and instead use "assign fire support" if they need in-direct force multiplier?
Sensors have longer range, and are much less expensive.
dunk2k wrote:5) Sensor Turret and Sensor Tower- the only difference I find in their usage is the Tower automatically fires on any enemy unit and structure within it's vast range, whilst the Turret requires you manually designate a target at longer ranges. This normal or am I doing something wrong here?
This is expected, though we're planning on changing them so that they're more similar sometime in the future.
dunk2k wrote:6) Would mention something about path finding but I see from the development section that version 3 is dealing with that :P
And going nowhere. :( The next time I get some free time, I'll start working on it again.
dunk2k wrote:7) Is there some button I can press to get a visual indication, either on screen or on the mini map, the weapons range of a single or multiple units?
F12, I think? Or maybe Z. There's definitely a key that does that. :|

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Re: Penny for a noob sir?

Post by ScoBe » 08 Oct 2010, 16:43

I won't try to answer the lot, but only (2). Flamers have to be massed to be deadly, and they're best either on very fast transport (hovers or cyborgs) or possibly on stronger (medium) bodies (so I've heard--I do only fast, light, and numerous). Watch a dozen flamer cyborgs with a few body upgrades take on a small troop of wheeled or half-tracked tanks in early game and you'll see what I mean. If you give them some research love (flamer upgrades), set them to return on medium damage and build a repair station in some protected place not far from their battleground, they're pretty formidable even with their low range. If you have enough, and have a repair station, those flamer 'borgs can save your base's bacon from a pretty large rush-force.

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Re: Penny for a noob sir?

Post by NoQ » 08 Oct 2010, 17:14

Zarel wrote:Sensors have longer range
Hmm, i just wanted to write the same thing, but looked it up in the guide and they turned out to be same: 12 unupgraded, 18 at full upgrades. Yes, WSSs have much better range, but they are very late-game as well.

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Re: Penny for a noob sir?

Post by alto1234 » 08 Oct 2010, 19:18

dunk2k wrote: 1) What practical Advantage's and disadvantages do the Assault Cannon and Hyper Velocity Cannon against each other- I'm finding the HPV cannon to be far more feasible than the Assault Cannon.
in corollary to what previous posters have said, assault cannon is actually effective against cyborgs
dunk2k wrote: 2) Anyone feel that the family of flamer weapons could do with a small range increment. Have found them to be totally useless as both an offensive and defense weapon, due to them falling short of hitting a target before they get bammed/retreat for repairs.
flamers are excellent as an auxiliary weapon the way they are. flamers are not a main battle strategy in real life nor in warzone.
dunk2k wrote: 3) The family of mortar weapons are great early game, but once the Howitzers and Ripple Rocket are introduced, did anyone else find they become unused/obsolete? though the Pepperpot is a RoF beast and comes before the Hellstorm, it still doesn't pack the range or damage to be considered aggressively used when compared with the available in-direct options.
wrong. mortars weigh less, cost less, and fire more rapidly. if you're looking to apply pressure on enemy defenses without investing thousands of power, a few bombard hovers can more quickly and cheaply achieve what howitzers would. hellstorms are the weapon of choice for complementing an aggressive push with your main force.

here's an interesting statistical comparison of damage per second per cost, ignoring propulsion modifiers.
d - damage; s - seconds, $ - power cost; d/s$ - damage per second per cost

Mortar ($100)
pure dps, unupgraded:
(60 d/round)(10 rounds/minute)(1 minute/60 seconds) = 10 d/s => 0.1 d/s$

pure dps with howitzer prerequisites:

(120 d/round)(10 rounds/minute)(1 minute/60 seconds) = 20 d/s => 0.2 d/s$

dps, @howitzer, cobra with dense alloys ( 33/13.2 ):
(120 - 33 d/round)(10 rounds/minute)(1 minute/60 seconds) = 14.5 d/s => 0.145 d/s$

dps, @howitzer, python with dense alloys ( 44/19.8 ):
(120 - 44 d/round)(10 rounds/minute)(1 minute/60 seconds) = 12.7 d/s => 0.127 d/s$

Howitzer ($250)
pure dps, unupgraded:
(150 d/round)(4 rounds/minute)(1 minute/60 seconds) = 10 d/s => 0.04 d/s$

dps, @howitzer, cobra with dense alloys ( 33/13.2 ):
(150 - 33 d/round)(4 rounds/minute)(1 minute/60 seconds) = 7.8 d/s => 0.0312 d/s$

dps, @howitzer, python with dense alloys ( 44/19.8 ):
(150 - 44 d/round)(4 rounds/minute)(1 minute/60 seconds) = 7.07 d/s => 0.0283 d/s$

now fast forward to later in the game. hellstorms, bombards, and pepperpots are all available. bombards actually become more effective, offensively, than pepperpots as armor increases. hellstorms are the offensive mobile howitzer because groundshakers fire far too slowly to support an assault. this time i'll take chassis and propulsion into account of cost.

Bombard ($200 + $39 for scorpion, *2 for hover = $478)
maxed out against maxed cobra ( 55/27 ):
(300 - 55 d/round)(11.2 rounds/minute)(1 minute/60s) = 45.73 d/s => 0.0957 d/s$

maxed out against maxed python ( 74/41 ):
(300 - 74 d/round)(11.2 rounds/minute)(1 minute/60s) = 42.187 d/s => 0.0883 d/s$

Hellstorm ($400 + $52 for mantis, *2 for hover = $904)
maxed out against maxed cobra ( 55/27 ):
(300 - 55 d/round)(24 rounds/minute)(1 minute/60s) = 98 d/s => 0.108 d/s$

maxed out against maxed python ( 74/41 ):
(300 - 74 d/round)(24 rounds/minute)(1 minute/60s) = 90.4 d/s => 0.100 d/s$

so why bother even researching howitzers in the first place? range, and only range.
dunk2k wrote: 4) You can attach in-direct units to a sensor to get the best firing range out of them, yet you can also attach in-direct units to a Commander and it does the same- pretty much making a sensor unit not worth bothering with if something with more hitpoints does the exact same job. Anyone feel that Commanders should not be allowed to have in-direct units attached to them and instead use "assign fire support" if they need in-direct force multiplier?
already been answered
dunk2k wrote:5) Sensor Turret and Sensor Tower- the only difference I find in their usage is the Tower automatically fires on any enemy unit and structure within it's vast range, whilst the Turret requires you manually designate a target at longer ranges. This normal or am I doing something wrong here?
already been answered
dunk2k wrote:6) Would mention something about path finding but I see from the development section that version 3 is dealing with that :P
already been answered, but pathing will never be perfect, so buck up and micromanage your units
dunk2k wrote:7) Is there some button I can press to get a visual indication, either on screen or on the mini map, the weapons range of a single or multiple units?
shift f12 in sp/sk, disabled in mp. for mp just familiarize yourself.

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Re: Penny for a noob sir?

Post by 3drts » 09 Oct 2010, 10:43

I personally don't find assault cannon that appealing, though its splash would matter vs cyborgs, its only slightly better DPS does not make up for its lower range, IMO, for tank to tank, or anti structure uses.
In massed tank battles (high oil), units at the back with AC may not be able to fire, whereas HPVs would, negating(?) DPS advantage.
For low oil, when arty will not be that heavy, being able to stay out of most defensive range would be great.
The ability to target VTOLs just takes the cake.
Flamer borgs are great for enemy wheeled vehicle, and cyborg rushes.
They aren't so great at attacking enemy structures.
They also lead to thermite and plasmite bombs, which are awesome.

I do notice that mortars definitely decline in use after Ripples and howitzers.

Mortars are used for a) harrassing an enemy position outside direct fire weapons range - they are the first weapon capable of doing this, but unlike ripples and groundshaker (and to a major extent, hellstorm), they need to be brought fairly close to those defenses, exposing them to an attack by ground forces.
Once the enemy has ripples/howitzers, the mortars will be taking enemy artillery fire, on high oil, this can be significant.
However, you may use them to provoke enemy CB fire, so your own ripples can take out the enemy artillery, that is firing at your mortars.
Mortars are much cheaper, so when ripples target them, instead of enemy long range artillery, and take CB fire, they will lose the artillery war, so I still consider mortar bombardment viable.

b) defense against direct fire units. You can only have so many lines of walls and hardpoints, before your defenses simply arent in range of enemy attackers, so behind that, you might as well put mortars.
They also do a good job vs cyborgs, with their slash and modifiers.
Unlike howitzers, they cannot support each other, so if you aren't just defending one chokepoint, they aren't so attractive.
However, if the enemy is attempting to draw artillery fire (with either froward positioned mortars, or a light tank attack), so they can get the enemy artillery positions, its good to have mortars of your own to fire at the enemy, so enemy counter artillery fire does not go for your long range artillery, while yours does go after the enemy.

Of course, there is some replacement: does anyone bother with lancer, when scourge is available?
With light cannons when you have rail guns?

You may stick with mortars, even after howitzer research becomes available, because it will take some time to get howitzers upgraded to where they are effective, whereas mortars are already effective, and can become moreso with more research- usefull if you think you can end the game before groundshakers/hellstorm.

I tend to find mortars more useful on low oil anyway, tech progression is generally slower, long range artillery is generally prohibitively expensive, so tank pushes are useful even late game.

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Im cured, it's a miracle!

Post by dunk2k » 10 Oct 2010, 21:42

Wow, some great replies there!
Not the repetitive, mindless skulduggery that you'll find rife on the EA fourms :D

Seems like Assaults cannons are good for getting up close and personal, as its name suggests, whilst the Hyper Velocity Cannon is more of a long range harder hitter due to its longer reload time. The HPV cannon is very reminiscent of the Flak 88mm cannon :geek:

Still not sure about the Flamers weapons being as effective as the other weapons turrets, but they're there.

alto1234 makes a fantastic comparison of mortars and howitzers, very informative :lecture:

Shift+F12 - wow! now I wasn't expecting that.

Zarel - thanks for the honest in-depth replies; sounds like changing the Sensor turrets functionality sounds a bit more straight forward than path finding, though reading the path finding related sections of the 3.0 development, its looking promising :)

Would a formation command/s be feasible to implement?- single file queue, double line queue, scatter, ex.

Then again, might make coding longer and more complicated- having done some programming myself, the aim is to get the code as short as possible whilst making it do its job effectively- and that ain't no easy chore.

Great to see the Warzone 2100 Project community are an informative bunch!

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Re: Im cured, it's a miracle!

Post by Zarel » 10 Oct 2010, 23:49

dunk2k wrote:Would a formation command/s be feasible to implement?- single file queue, double line queue, scatter, ex.
Even StarCraft II doesn't have formation support... If it were easier to add, I'd consider it, but as it is we're a bit swamped for time. If you write a patch to support it, we'll definitely consider it.

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Re: Im cured, it's a miracle!

Post by alto1234 » 10 Oct 2010, 23:54

dunk2k wrote:Wow, some great replies there!
Not the repetitive, mindless skulduggery that you'll find rife on the EA fourms :D
cha
dunk2k wrote:Seems like Assaults cannons are good for getting up close and personal, as its name suggests, whilst the Hyper Velocity Cannon is more of a long range harder hitter due to its longer reload time. The HPV cannon is very reminiscent of the Flak 88mm cannon :geek:
i figure i should add a few things.
  • with regard to vtol droids, assault cannon and hpv cannon take on whole new meanings. i personally find assault cannon a more viable choice when engaging in air-to-ground attacks. i say this because despite that the vtol assault cannon deals slightly less damage per run than the vtol hpv cannon, the former weighs substantially less and refires more quickly than the latter, allowing the rapid destruction of ground targets in sequence and a subsequent reduced reload time - after all, weight and reload time vary directly. with several ground targets distanced a few tiles apart, you can empty your ACs in 10 seconds and eliminate 8 targets. quick turnaround!
  • HPV cannon/AA Flak cannon are Flak88.
  • assault cannon hits harder in some circumstances, e.g. massed cyborgs. shooting at python tracks? go for hpv.
  • don't fire assault cannon too "up close and personal" or you'll kill your own units too.
dunk2k wrote: Still not sure about the Flamers weapons being as effective as the other weapons turrets, but they're there.
flamers are good for base bodyguards, ambushers, and setting a large clump of units on fire. don't expect anything more out of them than what they can offer.
dunk2k wrote: alto1234 makes a fantastic comparison of mortars and howitzers, very informative :lecture:
damn right
dunk2k wrote:Shift+F12 - wow! now I wasn't expecting that.
now abuse your newfound knowledge of range to overcome enemy units tactically rather than by mass alone
dunk2k wrote: Great to see the Warzone 2100 Project community are an informative bunch!
damn right

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