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About light vehicles

Posted: 04 Jan 2009, 16:03
by Zoloom
Hi guys,

When i finished a game, I'm saying all the time that at the end of a battle, bigs tanks are already winning. But when i build some light vehicles for mass attacks, hit & run, i see the cost of the vehicle and come white : wtf that's almost the same price as a big tank !

I think light vehicles have their place at the end of the game, but now, the player have no choice, he has to build bigger and bigger. That's normal, ok, but light vehicles have some advantages...but with almost the same price of building as big ones, there is no case where they are really "cheap" for their utility.

Could we think about a reduce of price cost for light vehicles ?

Some of you will say : "hum that will encourage rushers", it's true.

But if we set a technology at the middle-end of the game, for big reductions of cost, maybe the battlefields will see some light vehicles ?

Re: About light vehicles

Posted: 04 Jan 2009, 16:11
by Mysteryem
Light vehicles with the same weapon as a heavy vehicle have a similar amount of energy required to build because the main cost of power for the vehicles is their turret.

Edit: Cheap, light vehicles are also useful to draw fire away from you main tanks.

Re: About light vehicles

Posted: 05 Jan 2009, 05:55
by Tiberian
you get what you pay for. if you stick a bunch of pulse lasers onto retribution hover tanks, you WILL get your money's worth.

Re: About light vehicles

Posted: 05 Jan 2009, 10:22
by Skrim
Zoloom wrote:Hi guys,

When i finished a game, I'm saying all the time that at the end of a battle, bigs tanks are already winning. But when i build some light vehicles for mass attacks, hit & run, i see the cost of the vehicle and come white : wtf that's almost the same price as a big tank !

I think light vehicles have their place at the end of the game, but now, the player have no choice, he has to build bigger and bigger. That's normal, ok, but light vehicles have some advantages...but with almost the same price of building as big ones, there is no case where they are really "cheap" for their utility.

Could we think about a reduce of price cost for light vehicles ?

Some of you will say : "hum that will encourage rushers", it's true.

But if we set a technology at the middle-end of the game, for big reductions of cost, maybe the battlefields will see some light vehicles ?
In the current game, light bodies serve as lightweight buggies in the early game and as VTOL strike fighters in the later game. The advantages of light bodies are that they are low tech and available early, can be built in basic Factories with no modules, and reload faster(as VTOLs). The price difference is not that big, though.

The strategy of using massed cheap units is possible, but is done with cyborgs, not vehicles. Cyborgs are optimized for this job, with their low prices, small and cheap Cyborg Factories, and high speed. They can even be airlifted on board Cyborg Transports, which is a neat feature.

Part of the reason why heavy bodies are so damned awesome is because of those armor upgrades - each one gives a whopping 30% increase, and since heavies have the most base HP, they get the most extra HP, which makes them damned tough. Lighter vehicles are left a lot flimsier but are not much cheaper. That's why I play all my Skirmishes with a self-made mod that disables all upgrade technologies(armor, weapons, factory production, everything). It works quite nicely as far as balance is concerned.

Re: About light vehicles

Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 03:40
by Captain Bipto
First off,

I am so happy to see this game is still kicking A&&, even more enjoyable than when I first got this game for my birthday all those years ago...

I had the bright idea of rushing a mob of mini pod cobra (Lightest PROJECT chassis?) wheelies to try to kill the Paradigmies (the one where you have to kill them and the next mission involves building a forward base). Boy did those puppies die fast.

Re: About light vehicles

Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 04:34
by Zarel
Rebalance makes the price difference greater. It's even greater in 1.10. But in late-game it's pretty nonsensical to use any body before Scorpion.

Re: About light vehicles

Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 05:40
by psychopompos
Zarel wrote:Rebalance makes the price difference greater. It's even greater in 1.10. But in late-game it's pretty nonsensical to use any body before Scorpion.
that being something that annoys the hell out of me.

i want cost effective light harassment vehicles damn it.lol

Re: About light vehicles

Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 06:19
by Zarel
psychopompos wrote: that being something that annoys the hell out of me.

i want cost effective light harassment vehicles damn it.lol
The best way is to couple them with a light weapon. LC is still pretty effective late game, and the price difference stands out more. Maybe Bug/Viper is a better choice by then?

I'll run the numbers when I get back to my dev machine (Monday). I'll see what I can do. :)

Re: About light vehicles

Posted: 20 Mar 2009, 23:36
by Frox
Light vehicles are best for hit and run. Their not really cheaper because I don't think they are intended for "mass attacks" but more for movement. Try to equip light bodies with wheels or hover and then longer ranged weapons like AT rockets or indirect fire guns. You will find that big fat Heavy Cannon tanks wont get close enough to you to even shoot if you get good at micro managing your units. They cost almost the same because most of the cost is the turret on the vehicle, lighter bodies are only sacrificing armor and hp for movement, not cost. I don't use light bodies often myself but I find they can be useful, especially on bigger maps.

Re: About light vehicles

Posted: 21 Mar 2009, 03:05
by 3drts
Light vehicle+light weapon.

Just as you wouldn't build a tracked python with a Light Cannon or .30 cal machinegun, don't build a wheeled bug with an expensive weapon.

But I do agree than in 1.10 and before, weapon cost was too large a % of the total cost.
I'd rather see cost increases for bigger bodies, and reduction on higher end weapon costs

machine gun viper wheels makes a cheap scout at any point in the game - but later they might as well have a "Null" weapon to put on a bug for an ├╝ber cheap scout, or a cheap "bulk" unit to swarm and confuse the non-targetable structure defenses and prevent them from firing at your units carrying powerful weapons - having your important units all survive an opening salvo exchange can be a big difference, if you knock out all their lancer defenses (or scourge, heavy cannon, etc), and loose only a some wheeled bugs carrying peashooters, you will be doing quite well and can steamroll through their base