The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other oddities.

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 23 Jan 2013, 11:37

aubergine wrote:Question: Why would Project be so much at odds with Seven Nations? Seven Nations sounds like they are basically doing the same as Project, just from a different perspective. I would have thought that Project and Seven Nations would have partnered long before the stories in this thread -- what kept them enemies for so long?
The Seven Nations are not Luddites but they have profound reservations about transhuman evolution and synaptic link technology in particular that is centrally networked and augmented by adaptive a.i..... at least as I imagine them. I also modeled their world view on Native American spiritual beliefs and history.

The Project embraces that technology. Not to the extent of Reed and his applications but still enough for the Scavs to have been wary. Not to mention Reed's culling from the Scav Populace. Both Reed and the Project use Borgs which the Scavs call "Mekka", a play on "mechanical man".

Then there are the "Mangodai", a play & ref on the Mongols of GK but also a faction belief structure that fuses Man with God through AI.
aubergine wrote:Oh, and we'll probably run out of fresh drinking water before we run out of oil. Have a nice day! :P
That I believe will happen well before 2086. In the late 19th / early 20th century in the USA, there were water wars. We may see those again, not just in the USA..
aubergine wrote:I'm so glad you mentioned Malthus. We are currently achieving an S-curve paradigm, but when the oil runs out my bet (and pretty much everyone else's) is that we'll encounter near-global paradigm shift to a Mathusian J-curve. To this day, my sustainability lecturer still rejects my assertion that an S-curve is merely a delayed J-curve.

Despite many "Deniers" stating that we'll never run out of oil (I guess they have some spare planets floating around that we can tap for oil?) all the evidence is clear that we are getting very close indeed to running out of oil. The mere fact that tar sands are now seen as a viable source of oil, despite the immense costs of getting oil from tar sands, not to mention the unimaginable harm to the environment, is clear indicator that oil as humanities main source of "power" is well and truly on it's way out.

This means that, inevitably, agriculture and industry will suffer massive set-backs, with optimistic predictions showing that we might be able to sustain 1/4 of *todays* population once the oil is gone. Human race will obviously do everything it can to delay the inevitable, but inevitable things will inevitably happen at some point despite our best efforts. Or will they?

Mathus would have been proved right many, many years ago if it were not for technological advances. We cannot yet predict with certainty that there won't be a technological advance that helps us overcome our oil dependence. And, if such advance happens, like allowing already-known inventions to actually reach the market, then the human race will continue to grow. And if it continues to grow at it's current rate, we will certainly hit 14 billion in about 75-85 years, at which point almost every city will be considered "major".

There are other factors, such as Agenda-21, which seek to ensure a drastic reduction in "useless eaters" by more insidious means, but with millions ready to fight against such agendas I'm not sure that will come to pass.

BTW: With a density similar to New York, it's my understanding that all 7 billion Earthlings could be crammed in to Texas.
Agree with most of that. Where Malthus may likely come into play as this century unfolds, is with a human precipitated pandemic via human enginered contagions (weaponized or not).... or as he put it in his treatise, plague. Frankly, I think this scenario more likely than all out nukes. Pandemics will take their toll as we get deeper into the 21st century I think.

Brit writer Terry Nation did a marvelous job in his novel "Survivors" in portraying a global pandemic which was made into a 40 hour BBC series in the late '70s and was rebooted by the BBC in a new series a couple years ago. Would highly recommend both series and both are available on dvd. Terry Nation also wrote for the "Dr Who" series in the '70s as well. He died very young. A great talent, IMHO.

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 23 Jan 2013, 12:42

Hrm, I never got the impression that Project "embraced" synaptic link and borgs. The cam1 briefing states that the tech is "vital to our success" not "vital to our way of life". It's a means to an end, not a lifestyle choice.

I always imagined that the Project were looking for synaptic link and borg tech for the following reasons:

1. Reduce fatalities when faced with bands of marauders and other enemies
2. Enable access to dangerous areas, such as places still heavily contaminated with radiation

In both cases, it's more about safety of Project people.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 23 Jan 2013, 13:55

aubergine wrote:Hrm, I never got the impression that Project "embraced" synaptic link and borgs. The cam1 briefing states that the tech is "vital to our success" not "vital to our way of life". It's a means to an end, not a lifestyle choice.

I always imagined that the Project were looking for synaptic link and borg tech for the following reasons:

1. Reduce fatalities when faced with bands of marauders and other enemies
2. Enable access to dangerous areas, such as places still heavily contaminated with radiation

In both cases, it's more about safety of Project people.
I don't disagree with any of that.

In Scav dealings with the other factions there were perceptions as a result of the nature of the encounters.

As a player, you are the Project. You kill Scavs. To all aprearances, on the battlefield, the differences in faction philosophies are not plain to see.

In the story "Crude In Sur Amerika", I address this through the character of Mallory. He is the bridge between the worlds (or walker between worlds as it is called in pre-science traditions, East and West, New World and Old World), between the misperceptions. Mallory, as a scav youth, was the sole survivor of his tribes battle with one of the factions. A Project patrol come upon him, save him, take him back to The Project where he is raised to adulthood as a Project citizen and eventually, a Project Commander. This story paves the way for "The Horns of Tatanka". While they can become allies, there will remain fundamental belief system differences and the Scavs will hold to theirs and not be assimilated into The Project, even though they may share some goals in common. You cannot logically arrive at a spiritual belief as you would a theorem, hypothesis or sound business plan for a bank's loan approval. Same goes for an original work of art.

Perhap's if I had revised and posted "Crude In Sur Amerika" first..... But that is novella legnth, not a short story. I do wanna tackle it eventually but it will take considerably more than a couple days. "The Horns of Tatanka" was just a way for me to quickly illustrate, in dramatic story form, the dry as bones differeces between the factions that I made in purely philosophical exposition.

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 23 Jan 2013, 19:58

Ah, that makes sense. I look forward to the Crude novella :)

BTW: There is no such thing as a sound business plan, the mere fact that it's based on money makes it 100% illogical and un-sane.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 24 Jan 2013, 00:18

aubergine wrote:Ah, that makes sense. I look forward to the Crude novella :)

BTW: There is no such thing as a sound business plan, the mere fact that it's based on money makes it 100% illogical and un-sane.
True. Though Bankers and Venture Capitalists would like to pretend otherwise, at least in public. Behind closed doors, all those cards are on the table, and thoughts of rigging the game in their favor are always close at hand.

Adam Smith's rectifying "invisible hand" of mutual self-interest when it comes to lucre and Ayn Rand's heroic vision have often been belied by actual major events in the 500 year history since the birth of capitalism and the so-called free market which in truth has rarely been free as presented and praised to high heaven. The global economic debacle of '08 - ' 09 just being a most recent example of many that litter that 5 century history. There are exceptions, especially on the mom 'n pop scale. Still, these exceptions donot overshadow, imho, the grand global initiatives that have shapped the world we live in.

BTW - Think I'll first do a visual portraying an early scene from "Crude in Sur Amerika" to inspire me to work on the story revisions. Thinking i'll composite a WZ 3rd person visual with my 1st person PoV visual. Gonna have to work out my nav meshes from the get go to do what I'm seeing in my mind's eye - a top down extreme perspective from 2 scavs PoV at a height scouting a Project Expeditionary Force landing of 3 super transports on a beach head below them along the Sea of Cortez... lead by Commander Malory.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 24 Jan 2013, 04:19

aubergine wrote:I'm so glad you mentioned Malthus. We are currently achieving an S-curve paradigm, but when the oil runs out my bet (and pretty much everyone else's) is that we'll encounter near-global paradigm shift to a Mathusian J-curve. To this day, my sustainability lecturer still rejects my assertion that an S-curve is merely a delayed J-curve.

Despite many "Deniers" stating that we'll never run out of oil (I guess they have some spare planets floating around that we can tap for oil?) all the evidence is clear that we are getting very close indeed to running out of oil. The mere fact that tar sands are now seen as a viable source of oil, despite the immense costs of getting oil from tar sands, not to mention the unimaginable harm to the environment, is clear indicator that oil as humanities main source of "power" is well and truly on it's way out.

This means that, inevitably, agriculture and industry will suffer massive set-backs, with optimistic predictions showing that we might be able to sustain 1/4 of *todays* population once the oil is gone. Human race will obviously do everything it can to delay the inevitable, but inevitable things will inevitably happen at some point despite our best efforts. Or will they?

Mathus would have been proved right many, many years ago if it were not for technological advances. We cannot yet predict with certainty that there won't be a technological advance that helps us overcome our oil dependence. And, if such advance happens, like allowing already-known inventions to actually reach the market, then the human race will continue to grow. And if it continues to grow at it's current rate, we will certainly hit 14 billion in about 75-85 years, at which point almost every city will be considered "major".

There are other factors, such as Agenda-21, which seek to ensure a drastic reduction in "useless eaters" by more insidious means, but with millions ready to fight against such agendas I'm not sure that will come to pass.

BTW: With a density similar to New York, it's my understanding that all 7 billion Earthlings could be crammed in to Texas.
I don't doubt that new technological advances have allowed humanity to sustain larger populations. After all, they have allowed humans to settle in places that were previously deemed uninhabitable. However, until new advances are discovered AND implemented, humanity's population growth is still bound by what resources it can exploit using the tools that are readily available to it.

By the way, if we do manage to make the transition to alternate, more renewable forms of power generation, then I'd imagine that while demand for non-renewable power sources such as coal, oil, and nuclear power, would fall significantly in terms of civilian needs, I also believe that the military's demand for these non-renewable resources wouldn't fall by as much, if at all, since these non-renewable resources would most likely continue to remain cheap to extract and refine compared to the amount of power they provide. (This was also why I decided to make Wind Turbines in Contingency provide so little power for their cost compared to Oil Derricks.)
aubergine wrote:Oh, and we'll probably run out of fresh drinking water before we run out of oil. Have a nice day! :P
Maybe, though we've been developing technologies and techniques to either reduce the amount of water that we waste (such as in drip irrigation), or find new sources of fresh water (such as in using desalination technology to create it from sea water).
Rman Virgil wrote:.
..... there would be an arcology, since they're the only kinds of cities that I know of that could handle such high population densities whilst having minimal impact on the environment.
Yea ! .... the visionary architect Paolo Soleri, student of the great Frank Loyd Wright. One of my childhood heroes. I'll be visiting his Arcosanti in AZ for the upteenth time since the early ninties this coming March. Even visited his art studio in Scottsdale a couple time and bought one of his creations as a gift for my GF.

Gotta work Archologies into the WZ backstory. Good one SW. :)

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You may also want to do some research into farmscrapers, which if successfully implemented, would serve to reduce big cities' dependence on miles of farmland. In my opinion, this kind of technology would be needed in order for an arcology to truly be self-sustainable.
aubergine wrote:Hrm, I never got the impression that Project "embraced" synaptic link and borgs. The cam1 briefing states that the tech is "vital to our success" not "vital to our way of life". It's a means to an end, not a lifestyle choice.

I always imagined that the Project were looking for synaptic link and borg tech for the following reasons:

1. Reduce fatalities when faced with bands of marauders and other enemies
2. Enable access to dangerous areas, such as places still heavily contaminated with radiation

In both cases, it's more about safety of Project people.
I never had that impression as well. The powered armor exoskeletons would've been helpful not just for the military, but also for civilian applications like construction work and waste disposal. Besides, I'd imagine that, after the Project's conflicts with the Collective and NEXUS, they would've become more cautious about whether or not to "embrace" such technology.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 24 Jan 2013, 05:15

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A perspective that should also be taken account of, I think:

The Myth of Technological Progress

Farmscrapers (or vertical farming) have major issues in cost to benefit analysis and in creating more probs than they remedy over conventional farming - from what I've come to understand. I should re-examine the current state.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 24 Jan 2013, 05:41

Farmscrapers are a corporate-b'stardisation of an inherently good idea. The corporates are driven 100% by money, and unfortunately we are entering a world where unless you can print or extort money, you are going to go out of business, so their resulting solutions are complete messes.

What you should really be investigating is recent innovations in hydroponics/aquaponics.

There are now many sustainable farms which utilise fish in their closed ecosystems. Fish help clean and fertilise the water that's fed back in to the crops, the run-off from which is then fed back in to the fish tanks. That eradicates the need for fertiliser.

By being in a closed environment, pests don't get in - that eradicates the need for pesticides.

Such farms make extensive use of composting, with the heat generated allowing them to grow produce all-year-round. Oh, and it drastically reduces soil erosion too.

See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9CCxdkOng

The problem is that big agro is vehemently opposed to these approaches, because it would mean profit loss in their oil-derivatives (fertiliser / pesticide / etc) shares.

In addition, many communities are looking to grow fresh produce in local spaces, made freely available to anyone walking by, for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbLnWo-Lqnc (and yes, she does make excessive use of NLP, but the underlying idea is awesome and well worth a watch)

I used to have loads of links on stuff like this on fb until FBI deemed such things as terrorist activities and fb started the mass deletions late last year *sigh*.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 24 Jan 2013, 11:47

aubergine wrote:Farmscrapers are a corporate-b'stardisation of an inherently good idea. The corporates are driven 100% by money, and unfortunately we are entering a world where unless you can print or extort money, you are going to go out of business, so their resulting solutions are complete messes.

What you should really be investigating is recent innovations in hydroponics/aquaponics.

There are now many sustainable farms which utilise fish in their closed ecosystems. Fish help clean and fertilise the water that's fed back in to the crops, the run-off from which is then fed back in to the fish tanks. That eradicates the need for fertiliser.

By being in a closed environment, pests don't get in - that eradicates the need for pesticides.

Such farms make extensive use of composting, with the heat generated allowing them to grow produce all-year-round. Oh, and it drastically reduces soil erosion too.

See here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV9CCxdkOng

The problem is that big agro is vehemently opposed to these approaches, because it would mean profit loss in their oil-derivatives (fertiliser / pesticide / etc) shares.
This came to my attention here in Colorado a few years ago because of some small start-ups of these very same closed loop fish-hydroponic eco systems. Very appealing on so many levels. I've even seriously thought of getting involved when I put behind me what I'm doing now 40 hours a week.

On a related note to multi-national corps like you raised....

The definition of what a corporation is has been grossly and illegitimately expanded in the way of its rights as an artificial person exceeding the rights of flesh and blood humans. So called precident goes back to a Supreme Court case in 1886, Santa Clara County vs. Southern Pacific Railroad. That decision did NOT state that a corporation had the same rights (let alone even greater rights) than a human being but the court commentator on the case reported it as such. Reporter commentary has no legal standing and was not the Supreme Court decision. However that error has been used illegitimately for over a hundred years as precident case law to continue to expand coorporate artificial personhood rights. The recent Supreme Court decision in the Citizens United case further compounded this by equating the right of free speech to unlimited money. There's a movement afoot to negate this with a 28th Ammendment to the US Constitution but it's a mighty longshot.

You may say this is just the USA. However, I will point out, that current international law surrounding the Corporate entity all goes back to that 1886 Supreme Court case.

This goes to the very heart of the problem which in legal parlance is called "Unequal Protection".
In addition, many communities are looking to grow fresh produce in local spaces, made freely available to anyone walking by, for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gbLnWo-Lqnc (and yes, she does make excessive use of NLP, but the underlying idea is awesome and well worth a watch)
Very cool. Reminds me of a couple of restuarants here in Colorado where you pay what you can afford and if you can’t you can trade time or whatever you may be growing in your urban veg patch for a wonderful meal.
I used to have loads of links on stuff like this on fb until FBI deemed such things as terrorist activities and fb started the mass deletions late last year *sigh*.
Mama mia ! That's outrageous. It pays to make efforts to fly under the radar of survelliance orgs even though you have nothing to hide. Difficult if you are a commited peaceful activist for change in anything related to the established poltical-military-industrial complex.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 24 Jan 2013, 21:14

Have you had any thoughts on the meaning of the Project's logo? Why a green spinning atom thing?
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 25 Jan 2013, 00:34

aubergine wrote:Have you had any thoughts on the meaning of the Project's logo? Why a green spinning atom thing?
Can't say that I have.

However, your mentioning it here made me think of something.

There's a documentary film I saw years ago that is comprised of early TV commercials (& govt. propoganda films, archival newsreels) from the US during the inception of the Cold War in the late 1940s and into the early 1960s where that icon's use was a commonplace. These were intended to reassure the public about nuke war and atomic energy. Stuff like - "The Atomic Gym" were working out and the raw power of the atom are equated. A spellbinding and singular piece of work that's like a time machine into mass conciousness. What the heck was it called.... Ah , yes The Atomic Cafe. It is worth checking out. Nothing else like it that I'm aware of. Here's the Wikipedia link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Atomic_Cafe

Then there is the color green which has long been associated with mother nature. Like, for example, the "Green Man" mythos:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Man


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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 25 Jan 2013, 01:57

So the project could be something of a Venus Project / Zeitgeist movement? Basically embracing technology as a whole, but in a way that works closely in favour of nature, not against it, and basically looking to better manage resources and the environment...?
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 25 Jan 2013, 02:42

aubergine wrote:So the project could be something of a Venus Project / Zeitgeist movement? Basically embracing technology as a whole, but in a way that works closely in favour of nature, not against it, and basically looking to better manage resources and the environment...?
I'll subscibe to that interpretation. :) As I understand the canon, it is consistent. :3

EDIT: IIRC, I make a brief use of the Green Man mythos in the "Crude" novella in a scene that takes place shortly after Mallory's squad captures Chandar, who is yet quiet young. It's prior to Mallory revealing himself to Chandar during interogation and subsequent battle with the Seven Nations led by Akbar, on the "Grand Roadway" (so called by the scavs), which in our time is known as the Pan-American Highway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-American_Highway
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 27 Jan 2013, 02:11

Rman Virgil wrote:… BTW - Think I'll first do a visual portraying an early scene from "Crude in Sur Amerika" to inspire me to work on the story revisions. Thinking i'll composite a WZ 3rd person visual with my 1st person PoV visual. Gonna have to work out my nav meshes from the get go to do what I'm seeing in my mind's eye - a top down extreme perspective from 2 scavs PoV at a height scouting a Project Expeditionary Force landing of 3 super transports on a beach head below them along the Sea of Cortez... lead by Commander Malory..
Here's what I got so far.

First that early on scene from the "Crude..." novella. Then the visual. As you can likely tell I was running the AR Mod.

… Silvana of the far eye scrabbled on her belly like a land crab, elbows for pincers, to the edge of the bluff over hanging a tongue of beach now occupied by an invading Mekka force. Her slight weight on the lip of the escarpment caused a few small rocks to drop. She couldn't hear their tumbling descent over the roar of surf but did catch them plunk into the sand not far from where a Mekka sat hunched over, metal sheathed hands gripping metal shod knees. He struck her as the leader being apart from the rest that were engaged in various tasks. He appeared not to take heed of the fallen stones. She let a sigh of relief escape her parched lips and noted the salt tang in the air, usually refreshing, was over-layed with a stench coming from the Mekka.

Then three Mekka birds lifted off the sand below, stirring up swirling plumes of sand. When reaching an elevation of 50 meters they screeched inland like hungry birds of prey, their billowy tails dissipating quickly in the coastal wind shears.

"Mekka, this far south...", she whispered to herself, half in awe, half in dread. "And for a second time in less than a moon."

Even though it would befall the Seer the task of breaking this news at the council fires of the Snake Clan's camp hours before Silvana's return, she would etch the Mekka, their numbers & kind, in her mind's eye. Akbar of the scar, her chief, would yet question her sharply and Akbar's manner was rarely less than fierce, any hesitation would lower Silvana's standing as lead scout. A woman scout was rare, a leader, unheard of and Silvana's pride, while never boastful, was as staunch as any battled hardened warrior.

She hand signaled her brethren, Nezacle & Balaros, to hold their position under cover of a scraggly copse, well back of the cliff edge. Balaros signaled in turn. Could he make his way to the boulder between them and a bit to the east ? This, Nezacle would never do. Different they were, as owl and hawk, but their stregnths blended. They were a good team. She gave Balaros the go ahead gesture.

Sea winds pounded the bare bluff, mingling sand with sun, they branded forearm flesh over the hours of her vigil, but Silvana held steadfast. She carefully broke position twice. Once to relieve a cramp, the other to quench her thirst with a few drops. It would not do for the Mekka to be alerted, or worse, the scouts captured or cut down before word could be got back to the tribe and thus confirm the Seer's long vision with precious details.

Two Mekka birds returned shortly after departing and were carefully concealed by the tree line, sufficiently above the high-tide boundry that could yet be made out as wet sand.

Silvana marked their position against the base of the cliff.

When the Sun began westering Silvana heard the third Mekka bird return, though this one settled inland of the tree-line. Surely the Mekka's night camp its destination. She marked that position as well for they would have to skirt it on their return.

The scouts held position till after sunset. It was a starry night with a sliver of moon when Silvana, Nezacle & Balaros finally retreated from the cliff face, staying well clear of the Mekka night camp, to wend thier way through the steaming jungle, by boar trail, back to the Snake Clan village.

If they loped all night without resting they would reach the vision camp before sunrise.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 27 Jan 2013, 08:23

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Variant…

Got me to thinking about a challenge map that would be water dominant and make use of my design from "Citadel Elite" (3rd challenge ever made - first 2 were "Bootcamp" & "Red Dawn", respectively) with a short story and a cut-scene to go with it. :hmm:

Must remember to turn shadows off next time too, on the WZ side ... :3
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