The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other oddities.

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 22 Jan 2013, 12:57

Rman Virgil wrote:There are already folks taking floating cities seriously. To accomodate as many as 50,000 and about 12 miles off continental coasts. Would all such be targets ?
Only if they could be located, and positively identified as legitimate threats (which can vary depending on policy). :wink:
aubergine wrote:In the other direction, again they are useful for escaping crazy land laws, allowing peaceful communities of like-minded people to escape the insanity of world government, etc. Obviously, this variant of floating city will quickly be eradicated by the other unless very well defended.
Given how the world seemed to be devolving into ultranationalistic madness during the final years leading up to the Collapse, I wouldn't be surprised if many of these floating cities were filled with anti-nationalists and survivalists that believed that the world was going to end, and that they would need to fend off attacks from would-be aggressors (whether its from paranoid nation-states or bloodthirsty pirates), in some cases, by any means necessary (even if it means nuking their aggressors). Moreover, who's to say that the populace of some of these floating cities had plans to return to the mainland in order to rebuild civilization in their own images after the Collapse occured? So chances are that many of these floating cities would be armed to the teeth.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 22 Jan 2013, 13:41

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Another future that is already unfolding, that Pumpkin didnot foresee in their backstory, is The Third Industrial Revolution where in most structures on the planet can be power self sustaining and even provide surplus into the grid infrastructure. What has been dubbed "micro power plants". Not just new structures going forward but the old being retro-fitted as such.

http://www.thethirdindustrialrevolution.com/
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 22 Jan 2013, 13:51

Yup - will be interesting to see what big power industry does to try and prevent that from happening. It could eventually put an end to their monopoly on power, and, once you have houses generating excess power (which is seemingly trivial to do with correct set-up and enough stuff) then things like electric cars will suddenly become much more feasible.

For example, homes could make eleccy freely available to any one who pulls up outside. Imagine electricity becoming free. That would really turn world on its head. Oil companies already invest vast sums of money in destroying countries and killing people for oil, suddenly only industry needs oil and they loose $billions from consumer sales as people switch to increasingly less-evil sources of power.

But then again, with such tech, why would post-collapse factions be so hungry for oil resources?! Surely they'd all be using solar panels, geothermal, wind turbines, etc.

I imagine that big oil / coal / nuclear / etc., will do whatever it takes to prevent energy becoming free to consumers, especially as companies would then start crowd-sourcing their power from consumers! *brain explodes*
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 22 Jan 2013, 15:04

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All valid considerations you raise.

And this too, in the context WZ, is key.
But then again, with such tech, why would post-collapse factions be so hungry for oil resources?! Surely they'd all be using solar panels, geothermal, wind turbines, etc.
Is there a GPM that makes sense, is believable, adds some fresh interesting depth, can complement oil and be as elegant, and not be wack unfeasible to implement ?

Got my thinking cap on. No guarantee anything will come of it though. ;)

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 22 Jan 2013, 16:32

Well, the only things I can think of so far are:

a) It's needed for reprap construction chemicals

b) It's needed to fuel military grade vehicles

c) It's readily available all over the place due to fracking in early 21st century

But there are other considerations:

1) Nukes during Collapse fried most electrical systems

2) Atmosphere still badly polluted = solar panels don't work too well

3) Wind turbines struggle to handle post-Collapse weather conditions

4) Existing power grid badly damaged

Maybe post-Cam3, The Project start to gradually transition back to pre-Collapse power genration, eg. due to atmosphere / weather being more amicable to that approach.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Originway » 22 Jan 2013, 21:12

Rman Virgil wrote:[
You mean as in rendering a 24 FPS clip of some minutes at hi res, shaders, shadows, a voice synced voice track, etc... 24 / 7.
Just for a still cap, not even in that universe.
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can you upload what you have done so far to youtube?

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 23 Jan 2013, 03:22

aubergine wrote:Well, the only things I can think of so far are:

a) It's needed for reprap construction chemicals

b) It's needed to fuel military grade vehicles

c) It's readily available all over the place due to fracking in early 21st century

But there are other considerations:

1) Nukes during Collapse fried most electrical systems

2) Atmosphere still badly polluted = solar panels don't work too well

3) Wind turbines struggle to handle post-Collapse weather conditions

4) Existing power grid badly damaged

Maybe post-Cam3, The Project start to gradually transition back to pre-Collapse power genration, eg. due to atmosphere / weather being more amicable to that approach.
Food for thought. :hmm:

I think I first have to consolidate my Nuke War assumptions based on the alternate hypotheticals outta of the latest science scenarios and what is not specified in the WZ back story (like warhead type, number and targets). These combined provide wiggle room to choose what offers the greatest storytelling possibilities that can likewise be correlated to GPMs. I'm seeing a glimmer of a simple new GPM related to every struc being a potential micro power generator but first I must address the Collapse consequences of said nuke exchange which in turn goes back to the set of assumptions refered to at the outset.

I'll try to work this out by the weekend.

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 23 Jan 2013, 03:57

Well, the WZ canon states that nukes were targeted at "every major city around the world", so a good starting point is calculate number of major cities (considering many small towns in 2013 will be major cities in 2086 due to the world's population reaching 14 billion by that time if current growth rate continues) and then you have rough number of nukes.

There is also the bit in the game booklet about NATO collapse (and I presume any ESS-like one world government would collapse with their army), so I imagine countries would be going in to over-drive in terms of military production and nuke stockpiling, with mass starvation amongst the "citizens".

I would imagine that by time human population is reaching 14 billion, there would be a great many people thinking about a kull. And I imagine as an eminent scientist, Dr. Reed would be in those circles or at least associated with them as he tries to get funding. If they too rejected and belittled him, would that be enough to push him over the edge?
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 23 Jan 2013, 03:58

Rman Virgil wrote:[
You mean as in rendering a 24 FPS clip of some minutes at hi res, shaders, shadows, a voice synced voice track, etc... 24 / 7.
Just for a still cap, not even in that universe.
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Originway wrote: can you upload what you have done so far to youtube?
Too unfinished and I can see nothing personally to be gained by proceeding that way.

At some point, when I get there, in the editing process, I'll be able to start putting together short "chapter" clips that are polished and of a piece. But frankly my priority right now is completing a non-WZ film short which is getting 100% of my rendering resources (while not whimpy are still a far cry from a Pixar workstation). This type work is resource intensive and very time and energy consumming even in post-production, none of which I have in great abundance so I have to choose on a personal criteria that amounts to substantive, real, ROI.

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 23 Jan 2013, 04:10

aubergine wrote:Well, the WZ canon states that nukes were targeted at "every major city around the world", so a good starting point is calculate number of major cities (considering many small towns in 2013 will be major cities in 2086 due to the world's population reaching 14 billion by that time if current growth rate continues) and then you have rough number of nukes.

There is also the bit in the game booklet about NATO collapse (and I presume any ESS-like one world government would collapse with their army), so I imagine countries would be going in to over-drive in terms of military production and nuke stockpiling, with mass starvation amongst the "citizens".

I would imagine that by time human population is reaching 14 billion, there would be a great many people thinking about a kull. And I imagine as an eminent scientist, Dr. Reed would be in those circles or at least associated with them as he tries to get funding. If they too rejected and belittled him, would that be enough to push him over the edge?
Good points. I'll have to follow those trails in my homework over the rest of the week. Also make connections to Reeds pre-Collapse bio as you've suggested. :)

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 23 Jan 2013, 04:38

aubergine wrote:Well, the WZ canon states that nukes were targeted at "every major city around the world", so a good starting point is calculate number of major cities (considering many small towns in 2013 will be major cities in 2086 due to the world's population reaching 14 billion by that time if current growth rate continues) and then you have rough number of nukes.
I may sound like a bit of a pessimist here, but I highly doubt that we'd be growing to 14 billion people anytime within the 21st century. I believe that much of the world is currently suffering from overpopulation issues, and that it was only recently that statistics showed that more people were living in cities than in the country. If we were to reach 14 billion as early as 2086, then I'm willing to bet that it would be VERY unsustainable, with the average person in the world being worse off due to malnourishment and resource depletion. If the world doesn't get nuked by 2086, then I'd bet that a Malthusian Catastrophe would happen, as social order breaks down, and wars over scant resources rage on, and THAT would be our Collapse.

Also, "major city" is a relative term. I bet that, back in the ancient world, cities with more than 100,000 people were considered "major cities". If the planet's population was 14 billion, then I'd bet that a "major city" there would be an arcology, since they're the only kinds of cities that I know of that could handle such high population densities whilst having minimal impact on the environment.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 23 Jan 2013, 05:07

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..... there would be an arcology, since they're the only kinds of cities that I know of that could handle such high population densities whilst having minimal impact on the environment.
Yea ! .... the visionary architect Paolo Soleri, student of the great Frank Loyd Wright. One of my childhood heroes. I'll be visiting his Arcosanti in AZ for the upteenth time since the early ninties this coming March. Even visited his art studio in Scottsdale a couple time and bought one of his creations as a gift for my GF.

Gotta work Archologies into the WZ backstory. Good one SW. :)

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 23 Jan 2013, 05:24

I'm so glad you mentioned Malthus. We are currently achieving an S-curve paradigm, but when the oil runs out my bet (and pretty much everyone else's) is that we'll encounter near-global paradigm shift to a Mathusian J-curve. To this day, my sustainability lecturer still rejects my assertion that an S-curve is merely a delayed J-curve.

Despite many "Deniers" stating that we'll never run out of oil (I guess they have some spare planets floating around that we can tap for oil?) all the evidence is clear that we are getting very close indeed to running out of oil. The mere fact that tar sands are now seen as a viable source of oil, despite the immense costs of getting oil from tar sands, not to mention the unimaginable harm to the environment, is clear indicator that oil as humanities main source of "power" is well and truly on it's way out.

This means that, inevitably, agriculture and industry will suffer massive set-backs, with optimistic predictions showing that we might be able to sustain 1/4 of *todays* population once the oil is gone. Human race will obviously do everything it can to delay the inevitable, but inevitable things will inevitably happen at some point despite our best efforts. Or will they?

Mathus would have been proved right many, many years ago if it were not for technological advances. We cannot yet predict with certainty that there won't be a technological advance that helps us overcome our oil dependence. And, if such advance happens, like allowing already-known inventions to actually reach the market, then the human race will continue to grow. And if it continues to grow at it's current rate, we will certainly hit 14 billion in about 75-85 years, at which point almost every city will be considered "major".

There are other factors, such as Agenda-21, which seek to ensure a drastic reduction in "useless eaters" by more insidious means, but with millions ready to fight against such agendas I'm not sure that will come to pass.

BTW: With a density similar to New York, it's my understanding that all 7 billion Earthlings could be crammed in to Texas.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 23 Jan 2013, 05:26

Oh, and we'll probably run out of fresh drinking water before we run out of oil. Have a nice day! :P
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 23 Jan 2013, 05:49

Question: Why would Project be so much at odds with Seven Nations? Seven Nations sounds like they are basically doing the same as Project, just from a different perspective. I would have thought that Project and Seven Nations would have partnered long before the stories in this thread -- what kept them enemies for so long?
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