The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other oddities.

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Rman Virgil
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 27 Feb 2013, 02:26

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Running AR and Contingency on the asymmetric, handicapped, "Aqua Coop".

Jason Reed. Leading the ManGodAi foothold just inland of the Sea of Cortez. His organic appearing UAVs returning from reconning the Seven Nations. They are part of the Command Helm MK V and Synaptic Link MK IV package which, among other special abilities, obsolesce both the Commander Center and Command Relay. Besides the UAVs recon mechanic they can also serve another function within a certain proximity of the commander. But we'll leave it there for now.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Merowingg » 27 Feb 2013, 10:26

I like it very much :)

The base at the back, the movement implemented by the birds is nice too. I imagined it as the moment when birds suddenly fly so fast and just next to you.

Shouldn't he hold a glass in his hand? Of bloody mary perhaps? ;) Or is he going to perform face palm ;) Again teasing.

But I really really like it.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 27 Feb 2013, 11:44

Merowingg wrote:I like it very much :)

The base at the back, the movement implemented by the birds is nice too. I imagined it as the moment when birds suddenly fly so fast and just next to you.

Shouldn't he hold a glass in his hand? Of bloody mary perhaps? ;) Or is he going to perform face palm ;) Again teasing.

But I really really like it.
Thanks Mero. :) I had some difficulty with this hybrid oddity. It went through many unsatisfying iterations. But, it's the best I could do right now. Unlike some who think they've achieved an A-game because power was handed to them on a platter, I believe you work continously to improve at whatever power you've vested in. That there is always more to learn, always, and so you simply aspire to an A-game. It is but an ongoing evolutionary process and not a pat end state to flaunt. It's what seperates the immature and impotent from the seasoned and positively effective, IMHO. Then again that presuposes humility and grace, qualities that cannot be handed out or purchased. :hmm:

========>

Jason Reed is a troubled man (not in the way of his dad, the Good Doctor, but still..) and I wouldn't be suprised if on ocassion his breakfast was indeed liquid in the form of a Bloody 8 with 2 shots of Grey Goose and hold the celery stalks. ;)

Those are actually meant to be MUAVs in the form of blood-sucking bats (if I changed the light sourcing and faced them to the viewer you'd see their little bat heads). I scaled them up for obvious reasons. In game they'd have to be at least a little bigger than Baba so you could discern them hovering in a circle of 4 above a Super Borg Commander unit before being dispatched to the cardinal directions to recon in stealth fashion. When hovering above the commander they mask his signature. When they are reconning, he is revealed to be targeted. Typical GPM construct that does require mini-A.I. implemented through an enhanced Command UI, mini-map and camera scheme.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 28 Feb 2013, 00:11

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Those are actually meant to be MUAVs in the form of blood-sucking bats (if I changed the light sourcing and faced them to the viewer you'd see their little bat heads). I scaled them up for obvious reasons. In game they'd have to be at least a little bigger than Baba so you could discern them hovering in a circle of 4 above a Super Borg Commander unit before being dispatched to the cardinal directions to recon in stealth fashion. When hovering above the commander they mask his signature. When they are reconning, he is revealed to be targeted. Typical GPM construct that does require mini-A.I. implemented through an enhanced Command UI, mini-map and camera scheme. .
Two recent discussions have been fruitful in this regard.

One was with Iluvalar on the current efficacy of using Segregated Arms vs Combined Arms in Commander combat groups in MP.

The other was with aubergine on the 14 year old problem of trying to use Combined Arms Commander combat groups for which aubergine created a script solution utilizing the JS API.
Rman Virgil wrote:.......

Just from my baby understanding of JS API I can tell there are great possibilities in store for WZ. :3 It's like giving the old girl an entirely new lease on life with a youthful vim and vigor and wrinkle free rosy checks to boot. ;)

Why today aubergine shared another specific possibility that also has me terribly excited for MP as I am for your CAM 4. Here check it out. It's about Commanders and the efficacy of being able to use Combined Arms groups in competitive MP:

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10364&p=118666#p118666

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This inturn led to my articulating my Modus Operandi:
Rman Virgil wrote:.......I have a set of criteria / questions I ask myself that essentially sets parameters on automation.

Aubergine's scripting to address WZ's inherent and fundamental problems with combined arms groupings in competitive MP beautifully, and affirmatively, speaks to those criteria questions.

These are the 2 inter-locking criteria questions:

~ Does the change (or set of changes) promote Deep Fun GPMs ...?

~ Does the change (or set of changes) promote more decision-making opportunities that employ the complete 33 Strategies of War ... ?

So, in other words, if the answer is "no" to both questions then the automation is very likely miss-guided...

Though I specifically referenced MP mode with aubergine's solution to the 14-year old "Combined Arms Group" frustrating maneuver problems, I apply these same criteria questions to SKI and CAM modes... as well any accompaning GUI design changes that are grounded in CTA research.
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Now I'm leaning toward tieing this all together and fleshing it out at the same time.

Let's start with a cross ref to its relationship with the DARPA Deep Green project I mentioned here a couple weeks ago in this fashion:
Rman Virgil wrote:.

A prelude to mull over as I work on my next illustration oddity.

Been following DARPA's Deep Green project since 2008. It is now in its Phase 3 trial.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/dar ... een-03497/

It has been my direct inspiration for an MK V Commander, MK IV Synaptic Link, new Commander GPMs and new Commander UI.

THIS is 21st Century warfare.

With a 22nd Century tech war machine at your disposal why would you fight like you were stuck in a 19th century time warp, maneuvering uncoordinated, and massed, in monolithic frontline battlespace?

Anyway, I've conceptually adapted "Deep Green" to the non-simulation game of WZ. I'll provide more details l8r.

For now the attatched DARPA image and above link provide some clues that you may find stimulating to ponder... or not.
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Back in '03 I dubbed this whole thing by the acronym the A.R.T.S. G.C.I. which stands for:
Advanced Real Time Strategy Global Command Interface. Still like it.

Anyway....

Here's an amended illustration to get started...
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Merowingg » 28 Feb 2013, 14:55

Rman, it is strongly suggested for you to look into this direction :)

viewtopic.php?p=119055#p119055

I did not want to go off topic here again, so visit me ;)

Also, I do not recognise enormous bats :augh: maybe I play computer games too much? So when for example when a mutant war breaks up, I will just take sharpened stick, or snirper rifle from a near policeman and start shooting to them just before going home to study? :hmm:

:P
“Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, and ideas are bulletproof.” - V

"Mark my words boy, Mark them well, I have survived your predecessors and I will survive you." - Merovingian

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 28 Feb 2013, 16:12

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Check out these RL survellance MUAVs:

http://occupycorporatism.com/the-insect ... echnology/

And as for my bats:

http://gizmodo.com/5070950/air-force-wa ... ban-combat

Believe me, if I had them face the camera instead of away and changed the light sourcing you'd not mistake them for anything but looking like oversized bats. :P

I just may prove it to ya. :3

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 28 Feb 2013, 23:58

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 01 Mar 2013, 00:56



Damn...! :hmm:

Check this...

Rats, thousands of miles apart, communicate through brain link: 

http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/02/ ... rain-link/

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 01 Mar 2013, 01:05

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Mero, we have a saying - "Don't kid a kidder." :lol2: Remember, they looks like bats but they is machines.

Also... didn't forget about Lena's close cousin from Kyoto, come to lend moral support during Jason Reed's recovery from the Neo Luddite bombing at Poly Tech.
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Merowingg » 01 Mar 2013, 14:52

Rman I have fallen in love :oops: Where is a heart smiley when you need one!

Really really cool man. You are also very clever guy, she seems to reperesent my point of view in every aspect. I think you have listened to all my about women talkin patiently :3

Black coat/jacket like dress with a zip! +40 figure +30 Black hat! +30 Summing up 100 for being from Japan 100 + 40 + 30 + 30, result 200%

No higher value is possible. All other trials by others may be in vain.

I must say I do not see her feet and shoes but in this case it does not matter. If it is as the rest, you have created the godess :)

I hope she dye her hair from time to time into red, or maybe she is red oryginally :hmm:

Anyway I have smiled, and really really cool :)

Thank you :)
“Beneath this mask there is more than flesh. Beneath this mask there is an idea, and ideas are bulletproof.” - V

"Mark my words boy, Mark them well, I have survived your predecessors and I will survive you." - Merovingian

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 02 Mar 2013, 02:21

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Yeah, I cropped the boots off. They are black, knee-high, lace-up, with stilletto heals, of course. ;)

Funny you should mention red. When I started on her a few weeks ago, she was a red head wearing a red super clingy short dress with side panel, oval cut-aways that ran from just below her armpits (shaved, natch) to her hips. Very sexy, you can well imagine. :) However, I ended up scrapping it for reasons I couldn't articulate even if I applied my best effort to do so. My gut, my intuition, led me away from the red to the black. This happens with everything I do creatively. I get into this flow zone beyond concious logic, beyond any form concious articulation, tapped totally into my subconcious, and I trust and go with it. After its all out and tangible, i work through it, still trusting my analogical instincts to get to a point were it "feels" right. It can be like a roller coaster ride, hairaising, and it can also mean going through scores of "failed" iterations (failed in my intuitive judgement, but still interesting and useful for the satisfying "little wins" along the way that are essential to my process in visual art, storytelling and making music.)

It's all good. :) At least, my interpretation of that expression amounts to the creation process I've just attempted to describe. Guess it also explains why I'm so into improvisation, bricolage and making art out of discarded "junk". :hmm:
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 04 Mar 2013, 01:16

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Though I posted the following in another thread it fundamentally informs what is of central value in the mix of this thread. Plus, since selective exposure is moot here, the effort of careful articulation won't amount to whistling Dixie in blue coat country. :3

The trigger in this attempt at communicating a substantive line of perception (and WZ game design and dev history), was the whys of persisting through the rote, adverse, predictable, gameplay experience in MP (going on 14 years now), involving high-oil, flat, 8 (& the more recent 10) player maps moving from T1-T3.

So, here it is in full .... =======>
vexed wrote:I am trying to figure out why people play those type of maps, knowing that they will have a adverse playing experience with them because with those type of maps, things can get really, really slow.
Got it. Cuts to the heart of a long-standing, prime issue. I will start by reframing the question.

Why have a few score diehard MPers outta the million plus that have procured the game over the last 14 years, insisted on playing the game in a manner it was NEVER concieved, designed and built for ?

To that re-framing let me posit these corallaries:

Let that tiny minority follow their blissful insistence but let them not dictate the core development of the game.

It would be very useful to identify the reasons why the majority of the million plus don't cotton to WZ MP as it exists.

As far as game modes contribute to longevity, WZ MP mode has NOT kept the game alive for 14 years. CAM and SKI modes have. Again it would be useful to identify the reasons for that.

There are a number of reasons for that initial re-frameing question and set of corrolaries, but I am only gonna state one obvious practical consideration at this time. To truly rectify the shortfall issues that manifest in this type MP gameplay(high-oil, flat, 8-10 player maps) you'd have to port WZ to a new game engine and supporting MP scheme. The other reasons I'll get to in due course and they go to the core of the gameplay WZ WAS originally designed for which is also totally consistent with the tech level of its war machine, unlike this minority insistence to shoe-horn gameplay into the tacs of a primitive war machine tech level.

========>

Reg312's motivation breakdown is an instructive matrix to deconstruct so let's give it a go. Along the way we'll also address my re-framing question in greater detail, along with the 3 corrolaries.

Reg312 wrote:here is some reasons why high-oil:

- grand battles. people like grand battles.
Include me in that group! The clash of grand armies. An awe-inspiring game play experience, without a doubt. :D

The only thing for me is that when I want that type strat & tac war gameplay experience I don't turn to WZ.

I'll just mention one strat game designed for grand army battles that I go to for that kind of experience because it was designed and built from the ground up to provide that type gameplay experience.

Right off the top the battle engine is built to handle 57,000 combat units.

This successfull franchise is still going strong after 13 years and a dozen iterations (main games in different historical eras up to the 18th century plus expansion packs throughout). Of course I'm refering to the Total War series.

But you say - "Wait ! the Total War games donot include high-tech, modern warfare, like WW 2."

That's because the WW 2 game market is super saturated. Why enter that over crowded market when you've already sucessfully carved out historical military eras that have hardly been touched to create the gameplay experience of grand armies engaging in massive battles.

And now we move on to other reason the "Total War" series has stuck to the Pre-WW 2 era.

After WW 2, warfare begins to subsume doctrine that is reflective of certain high-tech that CHANGES the way war is waged from all previous eras and ushers in 21st Century Century maneuver warfare which is NOT, I repeat not, the monolithic frontline of grand armies massively clashing. 21st century warfare is actually the END of that way of conducting warfare.

We are already well into 21st century, high-tech, warfare which is paralled by the high tech war machine in WZ 2100. WZ was concieved, designed and built (up to a point, which we'll get to shortly) to wage 21st century warfare.

Where WZ falls short of fully realizing waging 21st century war is a consequence not of failed vision, design or intent but rather the two-pronged curtailment in the dev of WZ's 21st century warfare components by way of economic constraints imposed by it's publisher-distributor and by the SW-HW tech constraints of '97-'98. None of these constraints exist any longer. Indeed, replacing WZ script with the JS API is the single HUGEst step in removing some of the main constraints (the others would be reconstituted camera scheme and UI widgets).

What is 21st century warfare ?

It is, in brief, coordinated multi-vector, variable velocity, maneuver enabled by high tech that didn't exist pre-WW 2.... same high-tech incorporated by Pumpkin in the fictional 22nd century world of WZ. But the key is more granular "Command / Control" because what results from power without that degree of control is the pre-WW 2 type warfare that the "Total War" franchise is king of and that WZ will never excell at - nor need it or should it. This is as much a core part of WZs unique identity as a strategy game as are its massive tech tree and unit design GPM..... it just never gets formally acknowledged as such.

For a fuller explication of 21st century warfare you can get a start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network-centric_warfare

How this translates and relates to key curtailed WZ GPMs is covered elsewhere in exhaustive detail along with the direct relationship to the new JS API, enhanced camera scheme and reconstituted UI widgets.
- team-play. 5x5 low-oil game is quite equal to 1x1 on high oil.
 

Covered in above section.
- massive using of various tech. in low-oil many games ends with twin mg.
Pumpkin's attempt to deal with this was by offering the option to start a game at T2 or T3 instead of trying to play through T1-T3 in a single game.
- artillery playable only on high-oil.
Ditto.
- defensive style playable on high oil. On low-oil defensive tactic is unplayable mostly.
Ditto.
- more intuitive play. You just build base and make armies and fight. At low-oil your first move is truck race for oil.
Indeed.

With the advent of v.3.2 the technology will be in place to begin to fully realize Pumpkin's 21st century warfare original design goals that were curtailed and scaled back for the reasons detailed above. These reasons amount to the shortfalls I mentioned in my previous post that created the conditions that mappers and MPers have endeavored to adapt to over the last 14 years which has resulted in no significant active audience growth over the intitial retail release (which prompted Eidos to pull the plug after 3 months of under performance)inspite of the million plus units distributed over those 14 years. The game has been free for years and it still doesn't have the audience it merits for the same reasons it didn't when it cost $30-$40 bucks in '99 - to wit, key 21st century war making GPM components remain in thier curtailed state.

Now if v.3.2 begins to fully realize Pumpkin's original 21st century warfare GPM designs it doesn't mean those who want to play the game as if it were designed like the "Total War" franchise for WW 2 and earlier monolithic frontline maneuver can't continue to play it in that fashion. They still will be able to. But what it will mean is that there will be thousands upon thousands of new MPers that will dl the game and hang around to thoroughly enjoy playing it in true 21st century warfare fashion . And as result of that WZ will finally achieve the popularity and attention in the greater RTS world that drove Pumpkin to create it in the first place to stand apart from all other RTSs.

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by aubergine » 05 Mar 2013, 02:43

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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 05 Mar 2013, 18:31

Combined with this:

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1364 ... ion-system

And instead use recon M/UAVs...

Then weave it all together with the mini-a.i. for Commanders you put forth... and complex combat maneuver tactical possibilities fly off the hook and through the roof. :)

Pumpkin's prescience for RTS gameplay innovation never ceases to amaze. :3
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Re: The Doc's Bio Lab for Scav Experiments - & other odditie

Post by Rman Virgil » 06 Mar 2013, 00:08

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I'm starting to feel I should attempt a straight up, hardcore doctrine based, military fiction. One werein the centerpiece would be a coordinated, multi-vector, velocity, asymmetric battle sequence of scenes that specifically highlights all this integrated command technology of expanded situational awareness in play, along with the rich tactics and counter-tactics it makes possible that are not viable now (direct from the 33 strats of war). Also show just how it all dove tails perfectly with the post collapse world of fundamental scarcity (astride very high-tech) posited in WZ. :hmm:

I'll start mulling over the dramatic possibilities of such a clash between The Project and ManGodAi forces on terrain that includes water, mountain, urban and open desert. In other words illustrating a conflict that deliberately provokes multiple shifting centers of gravity. I'll make a first go at it the end of the month after I return from my off-grid sabbatical in N. AZ. coming up right soon. :3
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