Some criticism

[crux]

This was due to rushing into the beta cycle far too early. 2.3 beta 1 should've been 2.3 alpha 1. Some developers just like to inflate version numbers since it makes more people test the game.

is this a pass the buck deal ?
all betas should really be alpha versions?

Would be nice if whoever edits the post to state they edited it.
my comment doesn't have context to it anymore.
zarel actually said buginator instead of "some developers".

Let's do some more quote-mining: "A "beta version" is the first version released outside the organization or community that develops the software, for the purpose of evaluation or real-world [...] testing." Which is exactly what we're doing, no?

yes but if you guys keep adding new features then it never exits beta stage and moves to the next stage.

[cybersphinx]

yes but if you guys keep adding new features then it never exits beta stage and moves to the next stage.

And as you know from quoting the mailing list, we already know that. So why keep debating it?

[Zarel]

Would be nice if whoever edits the post to state they edited it.

Sure.

my comment doesn't have context to it anymore.
zarel actually said buginator instead of "some developers".

"Pass the buck" makes equal sense whether or not specific developers are named.

[Thyranim]

Let's do some more quote-mining: "A "beta version" is the first version released outside the organization or community that develops the software, for the purpose of evaluation or real-world [...] testing." Which is exactly what we're doing, no?

yes but if you guys keep adding new features then it never exits beta stage and moves to the next stage.

so either we are still at version 1.0.0-alpha 785 because of the addition of new features and bugfixes simultanieously (correctly spelled? )
hmmm....

if the decision would be made by me, than i'd say: do as you did before

[virgilglyph]

.

The semantics have been cleared up it would appear so let me serve-up a plate of T-bone, baked potato (with the works, natch) & buttered green beans. No peach cobbler, I'm afraid. O_O

Having actively engaged the game (& its community) closely since Retail Beta, pattern recognition is inevitable. For what it's worth, here is one central to this thread, from my POV to be sure.

Two base propositions to kick it off.

Mods proliferating are essential to a games thriving longevity.

Developers who attend the source with care, skill and prescience are also a boon to the game enduring and prospering.

When both activities are generally in-sync, players, modders and developers all benefit from their chosen focus.

Since the game was open-sourced a Catch-22 pattern has emerged.

Development progresses leaving a wake of broken mods. I posit that this discontinuity cannot sustain the game.

Both developers and modders have done good work that has satisfied their respective desires.

Let me speak specifically to the mind-set of Modders-Mappers since I've done both solo and in collaboration.

These activities are hard work but fun to create. Once created, the fun proceeds along the path of evolving the work - making the mod or map better, and thus hopefully expanding its audience.

Continuously having to fix your work because most source development releases break it, quickly becomes tiresome and absolutely NO fun. This dynamic for sure discourages modders and mappers from going forward with their work. This over-all discontinuity in-turn diminishes expanding the games audience base.

In systems dynamics lingo this is called a negative feedback loop which ironically fits well with the predominant activity out of the pattern discerned - endlessly testing for and reporting bugs, which can be satisfying and rewarding for a minority, I have no doubt, but while also benefiting the majority it simply ain't no fun for most to open-endedly engage this predominant pattern.

The conclusion I draw from this stated pattern is that WZ 2100 is currently mostly a developer's playground and until there is an equitable shift in the direction of players, modders & mappers having more fun than bug-headaches the game's fan base will stagnate at best. Perhaps that is its fate. I wouldn't presume to say one way or the other.

Having stated that impasse as MHO, I honestly do not know what strategy would make for a positive feedback loop other than my gut tells me that effectively sustained leadership would be at the core of the solution. In OSS projects that sorta parallels the quest for the Ark of the Covenant, it seems, from my limited experience.

Well, back to the occasional lurk.

Cheers, Virgil Glyph xD
.

[Zarel]

...mrh?

When's the last time a mod broke? o_O I'm pretty sure between 2.1 and 2.3, few mods have stopped working...

[virgilglyph]

...mrh?

When's the last time a mod broke? o_O I'm pretty sure between 2.1 and 2.3, few mods have stopped working...

The details, at present and down-the-road, are covered here:

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=3757

Whatever its shortcomings, v.1.10 represented a "stable" frame of reference from which mods
could externalize changes - thus modders improvements to their Mod could focus open-endedly in terms of mod-specific goals. Changes to the core game to improve it can obsolesce the basic internal frames of reference (taken for granted as stable in the v1.10 environment) which makes for more maintenance tasking irrespective of of the mods own change goals. Basically, more work that is not central to a modders impetus or satisfaction (this will also impact mappers and tool/utility makers, in due course).

Core changes for the better (let us presume that best case scenario which is also itself an incentive to doing) always entail trade-offs and tension. Basically what I'm saying is that as a modder once you understand how this all works your more inclined to put-off doing anything until some future date (assuming your interest will still be there - which is assuming quite a bit) when whatever you create will not be obsolesced so readily by core development. As core code development can be hard work so too can complex mods in their own arena.

Coders and Modders are each creators. Both would prefer to obsolesce their own work on the continuum of making their own improvements - central to the incentive to do the work in the first place. When the trend is for core changes to obsolesce Mods then the incentive for modders is to wait or put off doing till such a time as base stability is achieved so that the focused work can be just on the mods goals.

Continued development of some mods made public already has been suspended and others not at all released as a direct consequence of this dynamic. That I can assert with some assurance. Who can say the number put off, never begun.

In the end, these are no more than my own observations and interpretations - not at all intended as confrontational or to diminish anyone's efforts. I'm not even inclined to debate whose take is definitive or "right". I could be way out in "left field", all by my lonesome, I readily concede. And like I said in my first post, though I see a "Catch-22", a specific way through it I cannot make out. O_O

As well, for all I know, you guys may have had discussions along these lines on your developer mailing list or IRC channel in the past - I don't following either.

Anyway, just my 2 cents in the spirit of mindful attention.

Cheers, VG.
.

[Zarel]

You'll notice that Grim was a mod for 2.0... it's been a long time since then, and it really only had minor problems. Upgrading it to be compatible with latest 2.3 wouldn't really have taken much work - I believe Rman did so at one point. For the most part, since 2.1, practically nothing has changed.

[Guest]

You'll notice that Grim was a mod for 2.0... it's been a long time since then, and it really only had minor problems. Upgrading it to be compatible with latest 2.3 wouldn't really have taken much work - I believe Rman did so at one point. For the most part, since 2.1, practically nothing has changed.

:rolleyes:
You can't be that dumb?

[Assault Gunner]

I played 2.1. Most of what has changed has been bugfixes and build queues for trucks, as well as aesthetics, better pathfinding, but few changes to the core AI and program, when compared to going from 1.1 to 2.1.

[Zarel]

:rolleyes:
You can't be that dumb?

It was a subtle joke that I expected only him to get. But yeah, thanks for ruining it.

I played 2.1. Most of what has changed has been bugfixes and build queues for trucks, as well as aesthetics, better pathfinding, but few changes to the core AI and program, when compared to going from 1.1 to 2.1.

Honestly, the pathfinding may have gotten faster, but movement feels worse. Units get stuck more often these days. :/

[virgilglyph]

.

Heh, joke wasn't spoiled.

(BTW, just indulging a penchant for varying handles that goes back to well before WZs inception and have always made apparent to this games stalwarts to boot.)

Grim's Mod is fairly simple as mods go but was still a pain in the arse to make compatible (though ultimately straightforward in that it could only be compromised by future changes in readily pinpointed ways).

What I had in mind and was speaking too earlier was more complex mods that change GPMs (along with GFX) which entail nuanced balancing that is clearly not limited to stat tweaks (which themselves can have far-reaching ramifications for game play for all the simplicity of making text editing changes).

With these complex class mods, because of any core binary flux, you would have to develop to account for those on-going changes continuously or attach and freeze to a specific release. Neither course seems practical.

Also, with these type mods, where there are balance elements that dovetail systemically to all the mods other changes, while it can still run under newer releases it can still be "broken" by newly invoked balance shifts by the core. (If the dev road-map proceeds you can add being broken by format changes as well).

I'm not sure I've done a good enough job of explaining what I mean here. Trying to condense insights derived from many hundreds of hours of comprehensive work along these lines is a bitch. There is no theory here, just "school of hard knocks", so to speak. O_O

Still, probably have said enough.

Cheers, VG

[sg1efc]

Some food for thought:

1.) I greatly appreciate all of the people who are spending their Own free time to continue improving this completely Free project. This means that all the people involved are Volunteers and deserve our respect for giving us something free and enjoyable. It is an awesome game and has given me many hours of enjoyment.

2.) "Never look a gift horse or open source project in the mouth".

3.) Refer back to Number 1.)

[Zarel]

2.) "Never look a gift horse or open source project in the mouth".

On the other hand, without feedback, we cannot improve. So if there's some suggestion you have, or bug or other legitimate concern you want to report, feel free to do so! We're fairly friendly, as long as you aren't, say, nitpicking the stability of betas.

[Assault Gunner]

Never, ever, look an open-source project such as the WZ2100 project in the mouth. Besides, the Devs are working really hard, so just give them feedback. It makes them feel good. Like fanfiction, which isn't all bad. Just 90% of it.