maps by NoQ

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zydonk
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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by zydonk » 16 Sep 2011, 11:57

Iluvalar wrote:
zydonk wrote: Again, I am talking about sk here, not mp, tho' open-centre maps seem popular among mp players.
And you are wrong here ! While AI dont understand the dynamics, mp players all know that the target in square is to control the middle. Not to rush into a base. Once you control the middle, you can attack at 3vs1 and repeat.

By filling the middle, NoQ force the dominant players to "declare" their positions to neigbors. They expose themself to more frontiers. That's exaclty what we are looking for in FFA. For 3v3, the middle filling prevent the players to control the map on a single turling spot while the paths a close enough to still permit turtling.

That's perfect NoQ !
Point taken. I don't play mp, so the finer points of the argument may be lost on me. However, you seem to argue that whoever is tempted to grab the centre is then obliged to turtle there. The assumption is that all the other players will try to dislodge him. But if I were playing in such a game, I would simply attack the bases of my neighbours as they "waved their willies" out in the centre.

The point about a clear centre is that the players are obliged to confront each other, which leads to good old fashioned war of all on all. There is no simple focal point, so battles can erupt almost anywhere on the map. For instance, I placed oil in the centre of Cockate, but also laid out back roads between the bases - which are intended to facilitate sneak attacks. This works very well even in sk. But there are no wells in the centre of Squared because there is only one way out of the bases - into the centre. This is in a way a rush map, but the bases are extremely difficult to destroy...

Extra wells can be provided off-centre. They will be fought over but they will not become focal points - well are only worth as much as they produce.

As I say, I see WZ from the point of view of sk, where strategy can be important. Imbalance, varied terrain, and complexity are a virtue here. A game can easily last six hours or more, so maps have to be designed for long play. In mp, on the other hand, games are short and direct, with speed all-important. "Flag" style maps make sense here. But I still think open-centred maps provide better play, if only because some element of unpredictabily is built in to them.

Your last sentence is a bit garbled: "For 3v3, the middle filling prevent the players to control the map on a single turling spot while the paths a close enough to still permit turtling." I think you are refining the argument to say that the player controlling the centre will struggle to turtle without success. That's pretty obvious: control the wells, if only to stop others controlling them. It is a negative account of the filled centre argument, which only underlines its weakness.

But if you do like well-centred maps, then try this one. It's small and very very tight. I should have called it Bitch, but that would give the game away - as it were...
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4c-ludo.wz
Small, low oil, very exposed.
(2.82 KiB) Downloaded 408 times

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Iluvalar
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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by Iluvalar » 16 Sep 2011, 15:56

zydonk wrote: Your last sentence is a bit garbled: "For 3v3, the middle filling prevent the players to control the map on a single turling spot while the paths a close enough to still permit turtling." I think you are refining the argument to say that the player controlling the centre will struggle to turtle without success. That's pretty obvious: control the wells, if only to stop others controlling them. It is a negative account of the filled centre argument, which only underlines its weakness.
I wont argue every of your statement. We all have our tastes and it's ok. But I'll just answer to this one : Structures are roughtly 50%-75% more power efficient then tanks. Whatever team start to build in the middle of squared start with a massive advantage.
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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by Merowingg » 17 Sep 2011, 07:32

I wont argue every of your statement. We all have our tastes and it's ok.
Thanx God, I was already cleaning the guns for the duel, but as I did not know whether you will use pistols or swords, I had to prepare both..





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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by NoQ » 17 Sep 2011, 07:37

My last map sunk down to the previous page :(

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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by effigy » 19 Sep 2011, 03:40

zydonk wrote: But if you do like well-centred maps, then try this one. It's small and very very tight. I should have called it Bitch, but that would give the game away - as it were...
Nice, I enjoy this map from time-to-time already :D
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by effigy » 19 Sep 2011, 03:41

NoQ wrote:Whatever.

6c-Arid

A 3x3 battle with spectators (unmodded).
Looks interesting :)
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by zydonk » 19 Sep 2011, 11:50

Iluvalar wrote:
zydonk wrote: Your last sentence is a bit garbled: "For 3v3, the middle filling prevent the players to control the map on a single turling spot while the paths a close enough to still permit turtling." I think you are refining the argument to say that the player controlling the centre will struggle to turtle without success. That's pretty obvious: control the wells, if only to stop others controlling them. It is a negative account of the filled centre argument, which only underlines its weakness.
I wont argue every of your statement. We all have our tastes and it's ok. But I'll just answer to this one : Structures are roughtly 50%-75% more power efficient then tanks. Whatever team start to build in the middle of squared start with a massive advantage.
Surely that's true on every map?

Anyway, it is as you say - we all have our tastes...

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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by NoQ » 19 Sep 2011, 14:55

Surely that's true on every map?
The strength of defensive structure is divided by the amount of chokes it has to control (or you may say that its price is multiplied by this number). Squared-type maps have exactly one chokepoint, which makes defensive structures extremely strong.

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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by NoQ » 19 Sep 2011, 18:58

Just reworked spectator locations on Rubber to work with the new spectator mod; see Rubber_s2 in the original post.

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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by NoQ » 23 Sep 2011, 11:50

4c-Blizzard

A very simple 4-player FFA map. 7 oils per player +1 in the middle. The streets are rather narrow, so feel free to make use of all sort of defenses. You may even call it newbie-friendly. Scavengers are furious.

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Blizzard.png
Blizzard.png (32.54 KiB) Viewed 10108 times
4c-Blizzard.wz
v1.0
(67.26 KiB) Downloaded 617 times

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NoQ
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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by NoQ » 06 Oct 2011, 06:26

2c-Collision

This map is similar to Startup in the sense of topology and oil balance. The practical difference is:
  • It is symmetric.
  • It is a tiny bit larger.
  • Central oil is blocked by urban buildings.
  • Spectator positions included (compatible with the spectator mod).
Attachments
Collision_s.png
Collision_s.png (10.98 KiB) Viewed 10013 times
4c-Collision_s.wz
v1.0
(23.11 KiB) Downloaded 511 times

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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by NoQ » 13 Oct 2011, 19:32

Apart from a little first message re-design, the map pack structure was changed. Now it includes most of the maps, even modded and maps with spectators and master-only maps, split into different folders. Read README.TXT in the pack for more info (:

5c-Progress

A 5-player FFA.
Progress.png
Progress.png (47.99 KiB) Viewed 9947 times
5c-Progress.wz
for v3.1+, 5 players and scavengers, no spectators
(80.67 KiB) Downloaded 505 times
8c-Progress_s.wz
(79.5 KiB) Downloaded 547 times
Last edited by NoQ on 13 Feb 2012, 18:30, edited 1 time in total.

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tmp500
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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by tmp500 » 13 Oct 2011, 22:54

what can i say..... superb map! dont change anything. greets, tmp

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Iluvalar
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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by Iluvalar » 17 Oct 2011, 18:29

I found a little pb with your maps lately. It's more the source code then you actually ^^.

It happen when a cliff is in one line and split 2 different path from the tip AND the flow of the unit come straight in front of that split. When that happen, sometime the pathfinding make the unit slide on the wrong side of the cliff and it get stuck. You should try to make those cliff L shaped instead of I shaped.

Here 2 screen. Progress and miza-maze (every body know that bug in that map)
Attachments
wz2100-20111017_122200-Sk-MizaMaze.jpg
Well known bug in miza maze
wz2100-20111017_120159-Progress_s-T1.jpg
same kind of configuration in progress
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Re: maps by NoQ

Post by NoQ » 17 Oct 2011, 19:44

Yeah i see. *That* problem. Is it ok if i won't fix it because it's "too minor"? I'll pay attention next time i make a map, thanks for pointing out the exact condition when it occures!

Also, here's the map we just tested (and i didn't fix that problem on it as well :oops: though i don't see many instances of it down here)

4c-Clash

A bit more of that Arizona fun, 2x2 this time (:
Clash.png
Clash.png (21.74 KiB) Viewed 9851 times
4c-Clash-1-02.wz
(34.23 KiB) Downloaded 491 times
Last edited by NoQ on 13 Feb 2012, 18:43, edited 1 time in total.

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