Warzone 2100 Forums

Because in skirmish, whomever can research the most wins. Yup, I'm talking about the Research Upgrades.

Once you get access to the Research Module and "Synaptic Link Analysis", you can simply dedicate one lab to researching all the way through "Neural Synapse Research Brain Mk3".

Does it make sense, is this the way it should be? They are one of the few non-minor upgrade topics that have only the prior upgrade as a prerequisite. You cannot necessarily research all vehicle/factory/weapon/power/sensor upgrades in one fell swoop - their higher upgrade topics require better research upgrades. But you can do exactly this with the research upgrades themselves.

For contrast, in the campaign your research was largely controlled by what artifacts you recovered and when - you did not recover the NSRB artifact in Alpha 10, say.

What would skirmish be like if the T2 and T3 research upgrades ("Dedicated Synaptic Link Analysis" and "Neural Synapse Research Brain") were held back with more prerequisites, requiring you to actually complete more of the T1/T2 level research branches before you can get access to the next-level-up in research (and subsequent tech) upgrades? Is there an existing mod to this effect already?

Stratadrake wrote:Is there an existing mod to this effect already?

Maybe the mod Step Research (viewtopic.php?f=44&t=9566)?
And I think Iluvar had a thread for a mod that has eras(he still hasn't made that mod yet).

What would skirmish be like if the T2 and T3 research upgrades ("Dedicated Synaptic Link Analysis" and "Neural Synapse Research Brain") were held back with more prerequisites, requiring you to actually complete more of the T1/T2 level research branches before you can get access to the next-level-up in research (and subsequent tech) upgrades?

If it is like that, the player would waste lot of time researching weapons and stuff he won't use. And it would make the AI weaker because it would need to research everything for getting to T2 and T3.

What if some of the important researches will REQUIRE you to collect an artifact from you opponent?

iap wrote:What if some of the important researches will REQUIRE you to collect an artifact from you opponent?

But how would that opponent get that artifact?
And if you need to do that, research will have few sense, because the player with the strongest army won't be easy to defeat. I saw in some games that sometimes one team can't reach any base of the enemy. So, if that would be implemented...

I think the problem is that the gateway techs are not expensive enough, so that researching them is not a big investment. Making everything dependent on everything else is not a good solution, in my opinion.

I don't think researching strainght to Neural Synapse Mk3 is possible on a map with a normal amount of oil. This is obligatory in a high-oil game, but on a standard map this seems pretty hard; i feel no imbalance in that yet.

Personally, I like the res tree kinda as it is. Some weapons need neural and dedicated etc for example, Dedicated mk2 for twin assault cannon, neural for needle gun, and neural mk2 for laser. If you have a very finite number of weapons you are interested in using then requiring researching all over the board to unlock a prerequesite is not a good idea and kills a number of strategies.

Stratadrake wrote: What would skirmish be like if the T2 and T3 research upgrades ("Dedicated Synaptic Link Analysis" and "Neural Synapse Research Brain") were held back with more prerequisites, requiring you to actually complete more of the T1/T2 level research branches before you can get access to the next-level-up in research (and subsequent tech) upgrades? Is there an existing mod to this effect already?

You don't really need a mod, just try 3 research I'm not really interested in skirmish play, but in either skirmish or multiplayer try playing some games with only three research and see if you think the same. In version 1.10 when two players challenged each other for a 1v1, it was usually done with three research because five was way to easy. With ver 1.10 many eight player games were played with the default settings of three research. To play with five research you had to max it, but there was a glitch if it was not done a certain way. So when it became open source the glitch was fixed and the default value was changed to five. At that time playing games with only three research became a thing of the past. Yes it can be changed to three when a game is hosted but nobody does it, possibly because it makes the game more noob friendly. Making the game noob friendly has been a constant topic in the forums for a very long time. But what gets me is with eight or ten player games and five research, you don't have to think about tactical decisions as far as the tech tree you just click to move on and has led some to even suggest to make it automatic or semi-automatic which I don't understand. Playing with five research takes away a big part of strategy and challenge the game has to offer. I've been an advocate for new players and have always allowed them in my games when I host, but the noob thing has worn me out and my viewpoint has changed. It would be nice when 3.1 is released if the default value was changed back to 3 as Pumpkin Studios intended it. Maybe players would get use to playing with 3, they can always max it if they wish.

That's an interesting story, because I ended up making the research cost so high, the players can usually afford only 3 labs in the NRS mod.

It seemed the optimal setting to me to make sure every players have some relevant weakpoints to exploit. Which is necessary to make sure there is "movement" in the research pathes.

NoQ wrote:on a standard map this seems pretty hard

Yes a agree!
And on a highoil map it's still a long research, and all the players should have the same amount of oil!

Imo, I think Per hit the nail, the top tier research upgrades may need more power to get researched. It should be a weakness to research the research, as to take power away in what one would normally use for defenses and tanks/cyborgs/VTOLs.

Usually On Teams of four, I limit the game for everyone to have one research facility, since the teams share upgrades and such, it becomes crucial to what you upgrade.

Giani wrote:

iap wrote:What if some of the important researches will REQUIRE you to collect an artifact from you opponent?

But how would that opponent get that artifact?
And if you need to do that, research will have few sense, because the player with the strongest army won't be easy to defeat. I saw in some games that sometimes one team can't reach any base of the enemy. So, if that would be implemented...

they dont realy need to get it, just make that destroying their HQ drops said artifact that can only be colected by oposite team.


other way wich is a realy long shot is to add a faction option, basicaly when the game starts picking one research path will remove the rest, destroying enemy HQ will drop an artifact that will let us fuse both techs say person "a" goes for rockets, person "b" goes for laser then person "a" destroy "b" HQ and unlock plasma rockets.

polo wrote: basicaly when the game starts picking one research path will remove the rest, destroying enemy HQ will drop an artifact that will let us fuse both techs

That would completely ruin the game balance because you can't adapt your tanks for fighting against your enemy if you don't kill him and get his artifact.

they dont realy need to get it, just make that destroying their HQ drops said artifact that can only be colected by oposite team.

What?

I'm against having research upgrades depend on random technologies. This makes it much harder for novice players to find their way around the tech tree.

I find it much more acceptable to just raise the prices for the advanced research centers. I believe there was a time were heavy cannon or something like this were needed for some totally unrelated tech. I remember games where I was researching random stuff to get the one thing unlocked that I really wanted, because I had no idea which was the secret prerequisite...

@Raycast: Is this what you were referring to: HVAPFSDS cannon rounds need researching to get HEAP howitzer shells, at which point howitzers become really devastating. It's like you research everything howitzer related and then you've got to go back and do a load of old cannon research to enable the best bit of howitzer research.

On the one hand, I hated not knowing what to research to enable certain techs -- it was very frustrating. But in part, I think it was that frustration that made me more determined to learn more about the tech tree, and when I did start to learn my way around it it made me like Warzone more -- and as humans if we invest time and effort in to something, we generally want to retain it.

I guess what I'm saying is that if the tech tree is 100% obvious and a "no brainer" what to research next, it's going to be too easy / boring. IMHO there needs to be some oddities in there, little nooks and crannies that most people don't know about, little tricks that more experienced players can turn to their advantage, and a few absurd things for people to complain about. The tech tree needs "texture".