New Map for v2.1 betas 2 & 3

[Per]

zydonk - any chance that you could create a fixed up version of 8c-cockate where the narrow passages are a tiny bit wider, so that droids don't get stuck in them all the time? The AI in particular becomes hopelessly clogged up in every game I've tried on this map. I think maybe just flipping some of the vertices of the cliffs may be enough.

[zydonk]

OK, the two cockfight maps, cockpit and cockate, have been cleaned up. Thanks to kreuvf for the advice.

per, cockate should play better. But maybe you should try the smaller game, cockpit. It's less crowded and might give you a sense of how the maps should play.

I've dealt with the problem of jamming and non-play in earlier posts. I've played both of these cleaned-up maps in b2 & b3. There are no problems with the four-player cockpit, except really poor pathfinding and slow frame-rates at times.

As for cockate. It's a crowded map that pushes the capability of the engine in certain areas to the limit. I designed the map to be complex and tricky, where play can be both open-steppes tank warfare and back-hills close combat. It has generally played well under v10 and associated mods. There are block ups, of course (AI building at the entrances, for instances), but these happen as well in the Pumpkin maps that are designed for detailed fighting.

There are real problems playing this map in v21. I don't know why AI players suddenly give up in the later stages of the game. Part of the problem of excessive jamming has to be the result of the poor pathfinding. (I have seen two trucks head-to-head go left go right repeatedly without any resolution.) Cockate can become a very crowded map and as things stand this will lead to some frustrations. All I can hope is that the fun of playing it outweighs these.

adios

[Per]

Great! The cockpit and new cockate maps have been added to the trunk repository. Thank you!

[zydonk]

Herewith another new (sort of) map. I'm going into some detail because the new map - riftriver - has, to my knowledge, a novel layout, and because it has been created out of two existing maps.

riftriver is a combination of two maps: Great Rift which Pumpkin released in the May 21 patch and River Canyon by Divine_Avenger (see readme for details).

I have wanted to create a map which breaks away from the around-the-perimeter layout of players. It happens that the centre of Great Rift is completely out of play. I decided then to modify this map so that a second inner circle of four players and battlefield core could be created in this dead area. I have never managed to create a worthwhile map through my own efforts, so I decided to paste in a smaller fourhander and then merge the two maps with a minimum of adjustment. Through trial and error, I found that River Canyon did the job best.

There are some apparent inequalities in this new map. The outer players have larger and more secure bases, for instance, but they also have a harder time getting and holding on to extra resources. Conversely, the inner ring of players are pretty exposed once they leave their relatively restricted bases, but they stand a better chance of benefiting through the acquisition of extra wells.

The game can develop into a kind of madhouse of battling groups. AI players survive fairly well through most of the play. Some can become pretty formidable opponents. The map is not symmetrical, so gameplay will vary from player-position to player-position. It will take time to work out the gameflow, which can vary through accidents from game to game. Best thing to do in the beginning is to secure your perimeter and wait until you see how that particular game plays and then adjust to it.

I don't claim any credit here for the maps themselves, only for the basic idea and for taking the trouble to realise it. Perhaps when I become a really good mapmaker, away in the future, I will built a map such as this from scratch. But if you enjoy it, then what the hell, enjoy it!

[wari]

Thanks for the new map! It's a bit weird but should make for some interesting games!

[kipman725]

sounds interesting! great-rift is my favourite map I shall try it out.

[Per]

That is a really strange map.

[zydonk]

re riftriver:

Thanks for the encouraging responses, wari and kipman725. It'll take a few plays to get used to it, but it remains a real humdinger.

But "really strange", per? I got the idea years ago from Pumpkin's Clover, where, if you remember, the bases are surrounded by roadways. I've played riftriver a fair number of times (sort of beta testing) and the game holds up consistently each time, running for five to seven play-hours. It actually plays pretty well in the 2.1 betas, unlike eg cockate, but you should try it in v1.10 (and cockate, the latter I really do recommend, just to see how well that map can play). I usually load v1.10 with aivolution, which makes the gameplay even more hairy. I'm suggesting this as way to seeing how these games play where the pathfinding can cope with a lot of activity. I've no doubt that the time will come when they will play just as well (actually, it would be better, for many other reasons - screen size, zoom, sound quality etc) in v2.1 final.

cheerio

[Rman Virgil]

--------------------->

* @ zydonk: Good work.

* As a map maker you have 2 central powers besides the creativity of initial design:

* 1.) Variety and freshness of Game Play possibilities and

* 2.) Highly optimized path-finding (this later being as much art as science).

* I see your running v.1.10... NIKER just released his totally updated Become Prey A.I..... I recommend you
check-it-out on your map (you can dl from NIKER's Elite Force site). I've been running it for a couple weeks now for a fun and just started a formal test cycle on all the stock maps. It's human-like savvy will amaze you, really.

- Regards, RV.

[fisk0]

Herewith another new (sort of) map. I'm going into some detail because the new map - riftriver - has, to my knowledge, a novel layout, and because it has been created out of two existing maps.

riftriver is a combination of two maps: Great Rift which Pumpkin released in the May 21 patch and River Canyon by Divine_Avenger (see readme for details).

[...]

I don't claim any credit here for the maps themselves, only for the basic idea and for taking the trouble to realise it. Perhaps when I become a really good mapmaker, away in the future, I will built a map such as this from scratch. But if you enjoy it, then what the hell, enjoy it!

The map plays really well, but I think you should do something about the too obvious borders off the smaller river canyon map, there are too many vertical lines from where that map ended and turns into Great Rift. Especially the upper right player from the original river canyon has a lot of mountains around the base which just end abrubtly in your map.
But, it was a fun map to play (even though the 2.1 r5892 stutters too much).

[zydonk]

rv: thanks for the positive response. It's a funny thing about the pathfinding. In some ways riftriver is a more complex map than cockate, yet the pathfinding is way way better in v2.1 b4. The truth is, I only ever put in a two-three square gate, just one. I have tried more complex arrangements, working from Pumpkin maps, but I still don't know how it works, esp the bit about AI building along gateways.

I checked bp as you suggested. Niker has done a lot of serious work on both AI and balance over the years, but - except for LOD - I find the red rushes overwhelming. I can sometimes get through in an eight-player, but never in a 4c. But I like aspects of his balancing, esp the consistency and flair of his ideas. I play aivolution because I like the the whole thing of shifting alliances. This can really keep a game open way past the point when the end seems little more than serial mopping up of AI bases. Anyway, have put bp290-10 and 292-11(PURE) into KMS2MODS for future use.

fisk0: When I dropped RiverCanyon into Great Rift, I deliberately made only the minimum alterations to merge them. Part of the trick of this map is the play of accident. It hasn't been designed to run in any pre-ordained way.

lnd of map

I've attached the lnd of the map, which might help you understand what I tried to do. As you can see, there are lots a wells hidden away in nooky places. But you'll find that the AI players get around, and pretty damn quickly too.

Thanks both of you for taking the time to respond. I appreciate it.

[kipman725]

played some german dudes on rift river and I had to say it actualy worked very well in the middle positions there is not enough base building space but apart from that the intricate nature was very fun!

[kipman725]

could you post the .lnd files for cocktake as I want to edit it to make a version with bigger pasages and simplification for the AI to better use

[zydonk]

kipman725:
riftriver: The inner bases have already been enlarged. But the idea is for the player to secure the area around his base by taking control of the nearby choke points, which then provides terrain for extra structures. There is also reasonably secure (or securable) land behind each base. I usually play against AI only, and I find that the AI players have no trouble creating quite powerful bases on the inner circle. The map is planned so that the four outer players have "comfort" zones but restricted energy, while the inner players are up to their necks in it, but have access to the energy they need to survive. And, remember, you can learn a lot while fighting a losing battle, which might help you actually win!

Still, it's good to hear that it plays well in mp.

cockate: I'm going to hold back releasing the .lnd of the map and ask you instead to consider the following points.

1. cockate does not play as well as it might under the 2.1 betas (I've made that clear in earlier posts). I suggest you play it under v1.10 modded with aivolution, where you'll get a better idea of what this map is about.

2. If you want a more open "circus" type map, then I suggest you play either of Pumpkin's maps, Great Rift (4 players) or The Pit (8 players). They are both good and entertaining maps, both of which I like a lot.

Understand that cockate is not simply a badly designed map. You are meant to crawl around the back hills in single file between staging points. And you'll be surprised at how quickly the AI can sort out even the greatest congestion.

btw, riftriver plays much better under v1.10 too. Try it. You can get v1.10 versions of all my maps in my New Maps for WZ v1.10 Topic.

[Rman Virgil]

I play aivolution because I like the the whole thing of shifting alliances. This can really keep a game open way past the point when the end seems little more than serial mopping up of AI bases.

* Good point. Agree. A powerful feature (and interesting end game) indeed. I still play Tromans first iteration of Aivolution for v.1.10a because I love his implementation of Unit Transport Drops (& Height Advantage ballistics function). He mentioned recently considering putting it back in the latest version - I hope he does. Something that will also really shine when 512 x 512 maps are a reality.

* I appreciate your approach to design - most maps are not at all so carefully laid-out to expand the game play experience in ways imaginative, engaging and in 4D.

* Reviving the "River" map also brought back memories of it's mapper, Divine Avenger, who was quite a iconoclast - character. Had much of interest to say up until EW was released and he made the map. After, he completely dropped out of sight.

- Regards, RV