Naval War

[ciarson]

In my idea of naval warfare for Warzone, their is only a three constructions to be build on open sea.

- the oil platforms : to give advantage in conquering and holding seas. (same ratio than the land derrick to don't give too great advantage to the best equipped)

- the sonar buoys: it detect and mark on the map the enemy ships but don't show them since it's only a small structure. (really weak but quite useful to sound the alarm and coordinate naval counterstrike if ship can be assigned to it.) (if you think it should show the enemy ships and subs, we then must make sure that it don't show VTOL and hover.)

- the mine field : its in the same time anti-torpedo net, "anti subs net" and "near-surface mine". In its construction it would work like the walls but could still be passed by hover without dealing damage. they would be hard to spot (don't automatically appears on the map) except for ship equipped with a mine-sweeping system.


For other structure,like Emdek said, they can still be build on the shore or on small island, like a repairing dock to repair ships for example.

[Emdek]

ciarson, or treat power sources as destroyed platforms (only pylons and flat platform itself) and sonar buoys and mine fields as special items (kind of units - unmovable, or moved by wind / currents only), not actual structures.

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

@Emdek: Perhaps I could help in trying to implement the ability to build structures on water. Thanks in part to my previous experience in coding in the past (including a Game Maker project that I used to work on), I've been quickly learning how to code stuff in .vlo, .slo, .js, and .wrf files (as well as on designing new .pie models) to name a few, and I now feel like I'm ready to start learning how to code stuff in the game itself. I even have some ideas on where to start, and on how these structures would be implemented (though I doubt that I'd implement them exactly the way aubergine would've wanted them to be implemented).

[Emdek]

Shadow Wolf TJC, well, I'm personally against direct building on water, unless that building platform would be separate step (like modules for factories), or maybe even require special unit to build them (or move one produced in shipyard and put in specified place).

There is also one more thing, shouldn't waves (for naval wars, what about weapons to cause effects similar to tsunami? - would require lots of work, that is sure) affect "truck" building on platform / directly on water somehow (or those would be unaffected as hovers currently)?

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

If I was a developer, I probably wouldn't want to aim to implement such complex things in such a short period of time. Rather, I'd 1st want to work on implementing the basics by following these steps, one step at a time.

1. Change the code so that structures could be built on either land or water, but not both.
2. Change the code so that land-only structures could only be built on land, while water-only structures could only be built on water. (No sense building a shipyard on land, or a Cyborg Factory on water, right?) This would likely require the addition of a few variables for structures, such as whether the structure could be built on land, water, or both, and which .pie model to use for the structure's base while on land or on water (to prevent the need for duplicate structures, so that space is saved in Truck construction menus). Note that I'd have to either modify how structures.txt is read (which would likely lead to compatibility issues with past mods), or introduce a new .txt file in the stats directory (which would also likely lead to compatability issues, though likely only to mods that modify stats.wrf).
3. Work on new .pie models for structures to use when built on water.

Once all that's done, then others would be free to expand upon this if they'd like.

[aubergine]

I love the idea of old ruins that the player can build on. I had similar idea for some sort of sensor tower which a droid could quickly build sensors on, etc.

For me, the idea of building on a ruin is appealing because it's exactly the sort of thing you'd do in a post-collapse world. Why try and create something from scratch when you can just repair/rebuild something that's already there. I think it offers some really interesting gameplay dynamics as well, particularly because these things would be limited in number. If you grab a naval yard and repair it, you get to have some special units that nobody else has and gain tactical/strategic advantages, but at same time become the main target of other players on the map who want that structure badly for their own needs.

Just as map makers can affect gameplay by their choices of terrain, features, resources and scavengers, they could have a more significant impact on the game with these special ruins, carefully placed for best effect.

@ciarson - I love the idea of sonar buoys and oil platforms! I'd love to be able to put sensors in the water on some existing maps already! I know I can do it using hovercraft sensor droids, but having a structure is just somehow more rewarding, especially if it's a unique and special purpose structure (eg. it could detect submarines should they ever get added).

Ah, so many opportunities. I wish I could push a button and wake up in a few years when all this is implemented, the wait is killing me hehe.

@Shadow Wolf TJC - I'd insert another task before #1: Make it a lot easier to define structures, technologies, bodies, propulsions, and so on. Because without that all the other stuff will be much harder task.

[Emdek]

Yes, property to decide "ground type" (like propulsion for structures ) would be for sure useful.
Shipyard is tricky part, it should be partially on land and partially on water probably (like in Earth 2150, front needs to be on water and water body edge must be flat).

As for factories on islands, what about ferries then?
Strategic moving of production structures far from enemy reach.

[aubergine]

Hover propulsion prevents you from escaping over the water to a safe place, because enemy can easily get hovers and attack you.

[Emdek]

Yes, but you first need to know where enemy built it (if making platforms would be possible, so you could create own "islands").
Also preferred way to attack such "fortress" would be to use heavy battleship for example (not allowed to go too close to shore, maybe be checking water body depth - also for submarines).

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

I actually based my idea on how to implement them on Red Alert 3's structures, which could be built on land and water equally, with the structures that are built on water coming with an offshore platform to support them above water (much like offshore oil-drilling platforms).

[Kacen]

The problem I have with naval units is making them cost effective that people will want to use them outside "hey man lol let's have a naval battle".

Only way I see to do that is give naval units unique weapons only they can use, which will seem contrived since as far as I know they all use the same bodies and have the same mountings.

The obvious thing is well, they'll be slower than hover, only move on water, BUT have a lot more armor, but really that doesn't mean much to me, since a lot of people use hover all the time and to some it is more cost effective anyway, since the speed boost you get from hover and the agility makes it worth using over tracks for a lot of people as is. I cannot see fully aquatic units sans submarines being useful.

To elaborate on why I see unique turrets as contrived as opposed to unique turrets for VTOLs; it is obvious why bombs are unique for VTOLs, first off, and everything else is the same as ground except for the heaviest weapons and artillery excluded, and of course upped damage for balance reasons.

The only way to make naval units useful is powerful weapons that normal units can't use, which can't be realistically justified unless we have unique naval bodies.

[Emdek]

Kacen, bodies are issue, but could be solved by more than one propulsion type (more like those currently unavailable in game tracks I, II, II etc.).
And as for unique weapons I agree (we need powerful ones there), just to give them limits like don't allow to get too close to shore etc., to not let them to be used in "unfair" way.
Using here solution used for cyborgs / transports could be better, like to research full unit at once, without designing (or let only to set turrets).

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

@Kacen: Obviously, naval units would be the most cost-effective if the map that they're on has lots of water. If people wanted them to be effective, then they should design maps that are predominantly water maps.

[aubergine]

Aircraft carriers would be nice...

[Emdek]

Yeah, but only with really huge maps and if introducing kind of distance limits maybe too (or make them work as mobile pads).