tank design and layout idea

[mcdebugger]

Liked an idea with limiting weapons by weight...
Mmm.. Interesting.. Could I install up to three weapons on a heavy propulsion/body? Including engineering and repair turrets =)

[Thyranim]

A Heavy Gauss, Heavy Repair Truck ?
ehrm ...

but i like the idea of limiting weapons by weight to bodies...
i would go a step further:
light bodies - light weapons
medium bodies - medium weapons
heavy bodies - heavy weapons

[elio]

light bodies - light weapons
medium bodies - medium weapons
heavy bodies - heavy weapons

yes i think this is a reasonable idea, but allow light and medium on heavy bodies too

[Mysteryem]

quote="Thyranim"
light bodies - light weapons
medium bodies - medium weapons
heavy bodies - heavy weapons
/quote

yes i think this is a reasonable idea, but allow light and medium on heavy bodies too

But somtimes it's good to have a heavy weapon on a light body. iirc, A Bug-Wheels-Hellstorm is actually cheaper than the emplacement. I also put aa weapons (most are heavy, however some lasers are now aa and ground) on light bodies if I need aa defence but don't have the structure available yet. It's sort of a last resort protection.

Also they are sometimes useful for putting at the back of groups so that the units with heavy bodies soak up the fire at the front and you have a cheap yet powerful force.

[Zarel]

But somtimes it's good to have a heavy weapon on a light body. iirc, A Bug-Wheels-Hellstorm is actually cheaper than the emplacement. I also put aa weapons (most are heavy, however some lasers are now aa and ground) on light bodies if I need aa defence but don't have the structure available yet. It's sort of a last resort protection.

Also they are sometimes useful for putting at the back of groups so that the units with heavy bodies soak up the fire at the front and you have a cheap yet powerful force.

See, a Bug-Wheels-Hellstorm is a bit unbalanced, anyway.

...I think the structure should really come at the same time as the turret, for AA structures.

You know, Lancer is intended to be the unit you put at the back of groups. It's light, low HP, high damage, and long range. Perfect for keeping at the back.

[TVR]

... See, a Bug-Wheels-Hellstorm is a bit unbalanced, anyway. ...

In comparison to an emplacement, it is incredibly fragile, cannot be built by trucks, and takes a very long time to assemble at a factory.

In comparison to a Python-Wheels-Hellstorm, it nearly immobile, still incredibly fragile, and takes negligibly less time and power to construct.

The only use for a Bug-Wheels-Hellstorm is as a 'mobile movable Hellstorm emplacement' built from tier 1 factories, at a rate and durability lower than the emplacement.

[Zarel]

In comparison to an emplacement, [a Bug-Wheels-Hellstorm] is incredibly fragile, cannot be built by trucks, and takes a very long time to assemble at a factory.

In comparison to a Python-Wheels-Hellstorm, it nearly immobile, still incredibly fragile, and takes negligibly less time and power to construct.

The only use for a Bug-Wheels-Hellstorm is as a 'mobile movable Hellstorm emplacement' built from tier 1 factories, at a rate and durability lower than the emplacement.

Hmm. So it is weaker than an emplacement. But that's more because of Troman's balancing than anything else. Emplacements are intended to be pretty weak. The point is if any enemy attacking unit gets within range and los, your Hellstorms are toast no matter what. Hellstorm Python Tracks might survive for a while if you have AP weapons or something, but they're not intended to be able to face tanks head-to-head.

And plus, what about Hellstorm Bug Tracks? That's stronger than an emplacement. maybe not in Troman's balancing, since Troman makes emplacements 3x as strong as they should be. Try emplacements in campaign, 1.10, or Rebalance. They're not meant to be that strong.

Either way, I think Hellstorm Bug units can safely be disallowed ingame.

[TVR]

... Hellstorm Python Tracks might survive for a while if you have AP weapons or something, but they're not intended to be able to face tanks head-to-head. ...

Heavy chassis usage multiplies the engine power, turning speed, hit-points & armour, all which are essential for assault artillery... for only ~20 more power.

... what about Hellstorm Bug Tracks? ...

For sacrifices in turning speed, production rate, and greater resource requirement, ~1 VTOL lancer still results in it's destruction.

Turning speed is very important for engaging droids [movable emplacements will never reach a targeted base structure], as the turreted version lacks turret traverse, the entire droid must rotate to orient itself. The low engine throughput and heavy load greatly slows a Hellstorm-Bug-Tracks.

[Deus Siddis]

I think it is a very good time to start to think about what the realistic reasons for different multi-weapon platform layouts are, so that we can come up with something good for designs and layouts in warzone.

Basically you have only two ways (that can of course be combined):
1) Multiple Turrets
2) Multiple Weapons on a Turret

What we see more than one turret on:

Battleships.
Because battleships cannot efficiently cut through the water if they are too wide, and to mount more than about 4 guns, they need to have them on more than one turret, otherwise the turret would be too wide to fit on the boat.

Bombers.
Because they need fields of fire that provide full 3D coverage from all angles, not just hemispherical coverage like a ground or sea platform would need, so that fighters don't attack them from where they can't shoot back (like the belly).

Tanks.
Because when ambushed or surrounded by enemy infantry, they can fight back better against their multiple enemies if they have 3 or so machine guns pivoting independently to target different targets.

Gunships/Arillery/TK. Because the primary weapon system is unturreted or on too heavy and slow of a turret or the weapon system is too specialized, a backup pivoting machine gun or such can help take out light fast/stealthy targets like infantry, light ground vehicles or aircraft.

What we see more than one weapon on a single turret on:

Most All Modern Ground Combat Vehicles and sometimes Infantry (think underbarrel grenade launcher on assault rifle). Because you can have more firepower and armor on a platform that carries all weapons on one turret, and do so with less crew and sh*t to manage.

'Mechs' and some Futuristic Air and Space craft in Fiction. Same reason as above.


In summary you want multiple turrets when either:
1) You need to fit a shitload of firepower on one platform that would otherwise be too small or the wrong shape to fit that much.
2) You want an array of much lighter weapons that provide better coverage overall or at the same time.

You want multiple different weapons on each turret under any other circumstance and sometimes in conjunction with multiple turrets.

[Zarel]

Heavy chassis usage multiplies the engine power, turning speed, hit-points & armour, all which are essential for assault artillery... for only ~20 more power.

You can blame Troman for the "only ~20 more power" part.

For sacrifices in turning speed, production rate, and greater resource requirement, ~1 VTOL lancer still results in it's destruction.

Turning speed is very important for engaging droids [movable emplacements will never reach a targeted base structure], as the turreted version lacks turret traverse, the entire droid must rotate to orient itself. The low engine throughput and heavy load greatly slows a Hellstorm-Bug-Tracks.

Hmm, interesting. Still, I'm not sure leaving in Hellstorm Bug Wheels would improve the game.

[TVR]

You can blame Troman for the "only ~20 more power" part.

20 power is very significant, given the resource accumulation rate during T1 when the heavy chassis becomes available.

However, while upgrades to existing devices are a one-time cost, new weapon turrets require both research & greater deployment cost. The chassis never become obsolete, thus not necessitating research into new chassis nor it's accompanying price hike.

Hmm, interesting. Still, I'm not sure leaving in Hellstorm Bug Wheels would improve the game.

While useless as an armoured fighting vehicle, it still holds two advantages versus constructed emplacements: 1) It lacks a vulnerability to Bunker Busters 2) It's is movable, perfect for slowly expanding a base perimeter a la the mobile defence walls and turrets in Metal Fatigue.

[Zarel]

While useless as an armoured fighting vehicle, it still holds two advantages versus constructed emplacements: 1) It lacks a vulnerability to Bunker Busters 2) It's is movable, perfect for slowly expanding a base perimeter a la the mobile defence walls and turrets in Metal Fatigue.

You'd still be able to put it on a heavy body, and have a similar unit.

[TVR]

... You'd still be able to put it on a heavy body, and have a similar unit. ...

In general, heavy weapon turrets on light chassis are still useful because they can be fabricated at T1 factories immediately after research finishes.

Retaining such combinations serve to teach factors that determine combat uselessness, but there still are GPM niches for all ~2000.

[Olrox]

Grave digger?
nah....
xD
But I just couldn't leave it be without giving my opinion

I was thinking, It would be easier to allow extra weapons as "upgrades" to the standard cannon (which is, as I see it, the core of the strike forces all around, excluding VTOL's and cyborgs)
The heavy cannon could be upgraded through research, for extra weapons to the tower, but not other cannons, only fast-fire weapons (machineguns, assault guns) or self-propelled high explosive munitions (Lancers, Tank Killers). Then the player would choose in vehicle design one of the two branches (Cannon+high ROF weapon / Cannon+missile weapon), which would be properly balanced in weight for the tank to have speed penalties due to its improved offensive capabilities. Or, he could build the vehicle with the simple cannon if he wants to assemble a strike force cheaper, or more quickly or just to keep the enemy with work to do.

Then the additional weapon would be presented like a new category of weapon, which would be replaced with further improvements, to either the cannon or the additional weapon, with a version that matches both related technologies. This would require blending the cannon model with the selected Additional weapons, for each combination possible, make the necessary adjustments to the tech tree to allow development of either the cannon or the secondary weapon of the "Composite turret".

But, mind you, I don't even know if it's possible to make a single turret with independent weapons (both in targeting and in type)... Is it possible to do it without having to mess with hardcoded stuff?

[Zarrkorov]

so, it was really awesome being able to have the 2 heavy turrets, dragon, treads vehicle. what happened to that option? i have version 2.1.3 and i can't get the dual turrets options. what is the research for that? or maybe it just pops up? also, having a bomber with a bunker buster made the bombers worth while, because they could kill enemy aircraft AND destroy their base. do i just need to re-install WZ 2100? or is there an older version that i can get that has the dual turrets option back. thanks.