The game is too hard

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matthewfarmery
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Re: The game is too hard

Post by matthewfarmery » 02 Mar 2020, 21:13

I am struggling to do the final alpha mission, I use 2 commanders with 12 units each, 4 heavy machineguns, 4 heavy cannons, and 4 lancers. for the most part, this has worked out pretty well, and I'm playing on normal. So didn't realise there is a greatly increase unit cap until now. (and a 10 man mortar team)

But here is the thing, I'm near the top of the map, and the enemy just keeps pushing me back with superior numbers, But I have noticed that the enemy has pumped out too many troops, tanks and cyborgs, (the cyborgs seem to be super strong now, even the heavy MG seems useless against them.

But anyway, there is like over 30 plus units trying to come through the narrow gap bettween the walls on the left, pathing seems to be a problem on this map, for both enemy and ally units. What is worse I can't seem to approach those units before one of the attached units to the commander goes AWOL and charges towards the enemy, and there isn't much I can do about that.

in the last V2 branch, this mission was a cakewalk, but now I have about 50 minutes to go, and really struggling to push ahead. I think I made a mistake by using tracked units, instead of half track, but even so, the balance seems to be a bit off, and the metric tonne of enemy units trying to get through the small gap isn't helping. So I just wanted to come on and vent my frustration, as this mission seems to be a major difficulty spike compared to the other alpha missions. and does show there are issues both with balance and pathing.

if you want my save, I can upload, but I'm really not sure what to do, I guess I might have to restart and recycle and make half track units instead, not sure if that will help, it might help with the ally pathing, but enemies getting stuck, no.

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Re: The game is too hard

Post by Forgon » 02 Mar 2020, 22:00

matthewfarmery wrote:
02 Mar 2020, 21:13
I am struggling to do the final alpha mission, I use 2 commanders with 12 units each, 4 heavy machineguns, 4 heavy cannons, and 4 lancers. for the most part, this has worked out pretty well, and I'm playing on normal. So didn't realise there is a greatly increase unit cap until now. (and a 10 man mortar team) [...]

if you want my save, I can upload, but I'm really not sure what to do, I guess I might have to restart and recycle and make half track units instead, not sure if that will help, it might help with the ally pathing, but enemies getting stuck, no.
I would like to try your savegame. Please create a ZIP file containing
all of its files and upload that archive as an attachment to your post.

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Re: The game is too hard

Post by matthewfarmery » 02 Mar 2020, 23:23

OK here is my save, I am also trying to redo it, with just a lancer team (and mortars) and seeing if just lancers can make things better. I have noticed that the heavy MG seems pretty obsolete, even the heavy cannon doesn't seem to do that much. But anyway, maybe you could see the issues I'm having, and maybe provide some feedback?

(the rar file is V4, so you shouldn't have problems decompressing it)


Edit

Well I just enabled the cheat deity and I now realise there are a lot of units trying to get through that small gap in the middle left exit. And seems that the enemy can still keep pumping out units at a fairly fast rate. I guess going around the back in one option, but for that to work, I need lancer hover units, going to the far left exit is another, but I will be greeted by that metric tonne of units.

It seems that my save is not worth carrying on with. But I will say this, for normal difficulty, the level balance seems just too extreme, too many units, and poor balance when it comes to the weapons, saying that the HMG and HC are useless and you should be forced to use lancer, seems to be breaking away from the original game balance. HMG SHOULD be effective against cyborgs, but no they not, the only weapon that is, is the lancer. that and the poor pathing issues with this level, and the tight places that units can go, don't help matters.

I am trying again with a fresh go at it, and it will be a while before I get back to that point. I understand if this was hard or the last difficulty, but normal feels poorly balanced in my eyes, unit production needs to be cut in half at least, with the map fully revealed, I can see how many cyborgs are on the map, and how they are jamming the middle left exit. So there is a problem with balance here. I just hope something can be done about it.
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matthewfarmery
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Re: The game is too hard

Post by matthewfarmery » 03 Mar 2020, 18:55

sorry for double posting, but I tried to redo the level but now I've hit a new issue, the game is crashing either while loading the save, or ingame.

save and logs included, if you want me to open a ticket, I will, but thought I will post here for feedback, as this mission is just not behaving nicely.

edit, when it crashes loading the save, its within an active game, but more generally, it crashes while the game is running. last attempt didn't crash for me, so not sure what is wrong.
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Re: The game is too hard

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 03 Mar 2020, 21:49

For your first save:

Yeah, that's a big traffic jam. There are bunch of units trying to repair blocking other units wanting to get out of the base against a 1 tile gap.

Campaign weapon balance hasn't been touched other than the campaign testers and I making the Assault Gun weaker and weakening some of the lancer damage upgrades for Alpha/Beta between 3.2.3 and 3.3.0.

We have had long discussions about campaign balance before. In regards to Alpha, the anti-personnel weapons are very weak. HMG is useless by Alpha 9 and the MRA is just the same. This leaves players needing to use mortars/bombards to deal with cyborgs. Better players will notice the cannons are not very good either but may still use them as damage sponges, which they work very well at. And probably everyone will notice how OP the lancer is, which cuts down cyborgs and tanks faster than anything else available.

Taking a look at Alpha 12 in particular, we haven't seen many complaints. Most issues people reported were because their units weren't holding (there was a period where units auto-attacked things or sensors would chase things that came into view). But that is something I fixed some time ago. Still, orders/actions are kinda finicky especially with commanders.

Anyway, if Alpha 12 is truly a problem then we have some choices:

1. Reasonably increase factory production timers (especially on the cyborg factories).
2. Remove a kinetic armor upgrade on the cyborgs to compensate for the weak anti-personnel weapons.
3. Rebalance the HMG and MRA so they can handle cyborgs properly.
4. Reduce the health percentage the New Paradigm units want to repair at.

Of course, there are some people who think anything less than its current state makes it far too easy. I'll make a poll later.


For that second save:

I've played through the campaign on Normal and Insane difficulty and was able to, more or less, plow right through to the end of this save with what you had available on map. Until it crashed after I won. Somehow, there is a corrupted game object that the game is unable to identify as it attempt to free it. I suspect it's the second transporter the New Paradigm owns which is a problem in itself since the source can only handle 1 transporter per player in the campaign. Never seen this one before and couldn't reproduce it either.

Edit: Try this mission again with this mod. It slightly increases a few factory timers and more so for the cyborg factories. You'll have to start from a save before entering the offworld mission since changes can't be applied while in the mission.

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Re: The game is too hard

Post by matthewfarmery » 04 Mar 2020, 12:21

That is indeed odd, because in the last V2 build, I had zero problems with alpha 12, just getting a beach head and start pushing up. once I got the hover tech, mortar team is very effective.

But in regards to 3.3.0, the game does feel a lot harder, and yes, HMG and cannons seem to be no where near as effective as they once where.

But I never seen the AI build so many cyborgs, or have a blockage like that. So it feels that cyborg factories seem to be pumping out far too many units. But still, the tiny gap is also an issue, that needs to be either widened, or cyborgs don't have a retreat on X amount of damage. (do or die) that might solve that issue, and just have tanks on retreat.

As for the crashing, that is indeed very strange, I could try an earlier save and see if that works, or use the mod and start from my last mission save.

thank you for looking at them.

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Re: The game is too hard

Post by matthewfarmery » 04 Mar 2020, 16:09

Thank you for the mod, that does correct the issue, I had no problems doing the level, only lost a few units in the process. But I am able to beat it with time to spare.

I no longer saw a blockage with the mod, so it clearly did the trick.

Thank you, that fixed the issue for me, and I also couldn't reproduce the crashing either, not sure, but maybe I saved in a bad time? like if the transport was incoming, and when I load, the save no longer picks up the transport, which might expain where there is two on the map? would that be a feasible reason for the crash?

But anyway, thanks for the reply and looking into this, soon onto the next campaign.

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Re: The game is too hard

Post by Forgon » 04 Mar 2020, 18:24

matthewfarmery wrote:
02 Mar 2020, 21:13
I am struggling to do the final alpha mission, I use 2 commanders with 12 units each, 4 heavy machineguns, 4 heavy cannons, and 4 lancers. [...] (and a 10 man mortar team)

But here is the thing, I'm near the top of the map, and the enemy just keeps pushing me back with superior numbers, But I have noticed that the enemy has pumped out too many troops, tanks and cyborgs, (the cyborgs seem to be super strong now, even the heavy MG seems useless against them.

But anyway, there is like over 30 plus units trying to come through the narrow gap bettween the walls on the left, pathing seems to be a problem on this map, for both enemy and ally units. What is worse I can't seem to approach those units before one of the attached units to the commander goes AWOL and charges towards the enemy, and there isn't much I can do about that.

[...] I think I made a mistake by using tracked units, instead of half track, but even so, the balance seems to be a bit off, and the metric tonne of enemy units trying to get through the small gap isn't helping. [...]
I managed to win the savegame you uploaded, albeit with some difficulty.

The composition of your army is not abysmal, but given how much of the
map is covered by sea you would have a much easier time if you used more
hover units rather than tracks. The narrow gap you noticed is but one
location that favors players who use artillery, which is why I recommend
using more mortars (try using 20). Your mortar team is crippled by the
absence of sensors that increase its range (this is your worst mistake).

At the beginning of your savegame, your army consists of three groups
that are separated from each other. But to divide your forces is usually
a mistake, and a good opponent will try to trick you into making it.

Your habit of attaching units to commanders increases unit experience,
but also makes your units more difficult to move and thus vulnerable.
matthewfarmery wrote:
02 Mar 2020, 23:23
[...] I guess going around the back in one option, but for that to work, I need lancer hover units, going to the far left exit is another, but I will be greeted by that metric tonne of units. [...]
Going around the back of the enemy bases and entering them from the left
side was my approach to win the mission. In general, the campaign is
easier to play if you play aggressively and attack bases from behind.
The main reason is that campaign scripts then fail to work as intended.
It is up to you to what extent you wish to exploit this.

I began by ordering all units to the location of your eastern group. All
units were unassigned from their commanders to make them easier to move.
With my hover mortars on the water, I quickly rebuffed an enemy attack.
gathering_forces.png
Units move to a gathering point along a narrow road.
gathering_forces.png (472.48 KiB) Viewed 1458 times
With neither sensors nor repair units available, trucks had to prepare
each advance by building sensor turrets and repair facilities. Mortars
were kept on the water and destroyed many units and lancer hardpoints.
slow_advance.png
Mortars safeguard a slow advance of tracked units, supported by trucks
that have built sensor turrets and repair facilities.
slow_advance.png (469.54 KiB) Viewed 1458 times
A junction along the way led to enemy bases. Fighting at this position
would have been to my disadvantage because the enemy can quickly send an
overwhelming amount of units there. Bypassing it to move around the
closest enemy base on the other hand forced those units to follow mine
and pulled them apart, making it easier to destroy them. Commanders were
put ahead of other tracked units to increase the range of my mortars.
indirect_approach.png
Commanders lead units away from a junction and around an enemy base.
indirect_approach.png (495.9 KiB) Viewed 1458 times
While my tracked units were pursued by enemies, the hover units chased
ahead to build structures and destroy defenses. This was useful because
soon afterwards a small group of hover tanks attacked me from the left.
rushing_ahead.png
Units gather behind enemy bases before they can be attacked.
rushing_ahead.png (448.57 KiB) Viewed 1458 times
After destroying most of the units that followed me, I slowly advanced
towards the enemy base to the north-east. My mortars were kept behind
other units and busy destroying enemy defenses.
approaching_base.png
Units slowly move towards an enemy base and destroy bunkers in the way.
approaching_base.png (312.02 KiB) Viewed 1458 times
Once my tracked units were in front of the entry of the enemy base and
my mortars safe behind a cliff, I attacked the enemy base. Apart from
bunkers, few enemy units, including mortars, were guarding its entry.
attacking_base.png
Units attack the entry of a base that is defended by bunkers and tanks.
attacking_base.png (441.19 KiB) Viewed 1458 times

Forgon
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Re: The game is too hard

Post by Forgon » 04 Mar 2020, 18:28

When I entered the enemy base, my units were in each other's way. They
could therefore no longer retreat at medium damage. This problem could
have been mitigated if I had been more patient and not forgotten to use
my trucks to make new repair facilities at suitable positions.
entering_base.png
Tracked units enter an enemy base while under fire from many enemies.
entering_base.png (439.6 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
My mortars followed behind the tracked units and quickly destroyed two
factories and a repair facility.
destroying_factories.png
Mortars destroy factories and defenses of an enemy base.
destroying_factories.png (454.6 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
Soon afterwards, many enemies arrived at the base. I was poorly prepared
for their attack and suffered many casualties.
enemy_attack.png
An enemy army fights an intense battle to defend its base.
enemy_attack.png (449.29 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
After destroying the great enemy army, the rest of the base fell easily.
destroying_first_base.png
Units destroy the last remains of an enemy base.
destroying_first_base.png (476.87 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
The other base was only poorly defended because most of its defensive
structures had already been destroyed by my mortars earlier.
destroying_second_base.png
Units destroy a poorly defended enemy base.
destroying_second_base.png (437.41 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
Only about two minutes were left on the timer to finish the mission. All
units were rushed south. My hover units moved onto islands about which I
knew in advance that they were inhabited by a few enemies. These were
quickly annihilated. In the nick of time, I killed the last unit:
destroying_last_unit.png
Mortars destroy the last enemy unit.
destroying_last_unit.png (421.07 KiB) Viewed 1457 times
At the end of the game, I had lost 16 units (and killed 753).

@Berserk Cyborg: I annihilated the base in the top right of the map, but
its red proximity display was not cleared. Do you know why?

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Re: The game is too hard

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 04 Mar 2020, 18:59

Forgon wrote:
04 Mar 2020, 18:28
@Berserk Cyborg: I annihilated the base in the top right of the map, but
its red proximity display was not cleared. Do you know why?
I don't think that one ever removed itself originally. It's there to show the player where the main base is at the beginning of the mission. That is, Bethrezen didn't mention it since he actually compared the script behavior on v1.10 from Alpha 1 up to Beta 3 and gave information on what was different at the time of the campaign script rework project.


A patch (untested) would be as simple as adding:

Code: Select all

function camEnemyBaseDetected_NPNorthEastGroup()
{
	hackRemoveMessage("C1D_OBJ1", PROX_MSG, CAM_HUMAN_PLAYER);
}
Which should remove the objective blip when that base gets detected.

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Re: The game is too hard

Post by matthewfarmery » 04 Mar 2020, 19:00

That was a very detailed explanation, I realise that using tracked units was a mistake in this build, but it didn't cripple me in earlier builds of the game. I managed to redo the mission with Berserk Cyborg's mod, that reduced the cyborg output, which really helped a lot. Plus used half track units, one team near the middle left, and the other team took on the base from the left side. without all those cyborgs, it was a lot easier.

But, I still seeing some issues with units doing their own thing and rushing towards the enemy, even though the rest of the units hold firm. I do hope you can work on that at some point. Its one of the reasons I lost some units. I might retry the mission again without the mod, and switch to hover lancer and half tracks, and use 20 mortars. But right now, I'm glad I done the mission. As it wasn't as tough with the mod installed.

But thanks again for looking into this, and the detailed walkthrough on how you did it. I'm not really an aggressive player, but like I said before, the last V2 build, I had zero issues with this map, and am able to complete it without much trouble.

Edit

I think it would be a good idea to buff the HMG, it would be useful and would keep it viable until you get something better. I do agree that lancers are OP, but then again, as HMG and HC don't seem to be as effective, you are really left with little choice but to use lancers.

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Re: The game is too hard

Post by themac » 06 Mar 2020, 16:16

I might find tips for any mission in the printed Warzone guide if you tell me in which mission you are currently stuck. :)

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Re: The game is too hard

Post by Forgon » 06 Mar 2020, 22:26

matthewfarmery wrote:
04 Mar 2020, 19:00
[...] I managed to redo the mission with Berserk Cyborg's mod, that reduced the cyborg output, which really helped a lot. Plus used half track units, one team near the middle left, and the other team took on the base from the left side. without all those cyborgs, it was a lot easier. [...]
Using that mod, it took me about an hour to win Alpha 12 by using only
hover units. It has already been merged into our Git repository (through
PR #678). Thus, the mission will be less challenging by default once the
new release is out.
matthewfarmery wrote:
04 Mar 2020, 19:00
[...] But, I still seeing some issues with units doing their own thing and rushing towards the enemy, even though the rest of the units hold firm. I do hope you can work on that at some point. Its one of the reasons I lost some units. [...]
I have observed the same problem. Units move around for no good reason
even when explicitly ordered to stop. Mobile artillery is worst affected
and might even be used less often in multiplayer games as a result.
matthewfarmery wrote:
04 Mar 2020, 19:00
[...] I think it would be a good idea to buff the HMG, it would be useful and would keep it viable until you get something better. I do agree that lancers are OP, but then again, as HMG and HC don't seem to be as effective, you are really left with little choice but to use lancers. [...]
A major effort to improve campaign balance stalled a few months ago.
Once it is taken up again, your suggestion will be considered. I would
also recommend to improve Bunker Busters by increasing their ROF (as has
already happened for multiplayer games through ticket:4861) and making
it easier to hit elevated targets (like bunkers on top of islands) with
them. Perhaps Repair Turrets should be more effective relative to Repair
Facilities to make up for their vulnerability.
themac wrote:
06 Mar 2020, 16:16
I might find tips for any mission in the printed Warzone guide if you tell me in which mission you are currently stuck. :)
Any printed manuals are badly out-of-date by now. The campaign has
changed too much, not least since its conversion to JavaScript after
release 3.2.3. Perhaps you can find useful strategies by watching the
campaign walkthrough xZerox has recently uploaded to YouTube.
Last edited by Forgon on 07 Mar 2020, 14:17, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The game is too hard

Post by matthewfarmery » 07 Mar 2020, 13:52

I would also say that the heavy cannon might need a bit of a tweak, I just feel once you get the heavy cannon, its useless and obsolete, lancers out perform the HC by miles. I dont know when I will get the assault cannon? (as its been a while since I played the game) But maybe it could do with a damage buff?

but even if you dont buff it, the HMG really does need a buff, so i really hope some improvements could be made.

I think my main issues with alpha 12, two many cyborgs, and not using half track units, (or hover)

I also noticed hover units like mortars moving a around a lot, but as I dont assign them to a commander, I find that hold position works for them. so the main issue is with units tied to a commander, as you dont have direct control over them.

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Re: The game is too hard

Post by matthewfarmery » 07 Mar 2020, 18:57

I'm now ran into another issue, I'm on the first beta mission, for some reason I can't build anymore trucks, I've brought 40 units from alpha, (no trucks) I tried to recycle the two trucks on the first mission, to make them hover, but it saying that I can't build anymore. Yet it will allow me to build more tanks, I dont know what what is wrong, so it seems that the unit limit for trucks is different for offensive units? But even so, if I have recycled some trucks, why can't I rebuild them?

I seem to be stuck, so will have to load an earlier save, but still not sure if the limit will increase? or I'm stuck not been able to build anymore trucks in the future?

Edit, tried to recycle some of the tanks in the beta mission, and the repair unit, still can't build anymore trucks, what is the problem here?

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