True enough but keep in mind the changes for the flamer are intended to be used from alpha 5 onwards against the new paradigm so I'm well aware that they would be to strong on the earlier levels for right now I'm just trying to figure out how much damage it should do and then once I know that the changes will get moved to the flamer damage artefact on alpha 5 so flamers being overpowered on the earlier levels wont be a problem, for a fair test of the flamer you should try them on alpha 6, against the new paradigm units.Flamers are way too powerful. I started a new campaign and in alpha 02 flamers are running through the scavenger defenses like the defenses don't exist. And that before the upgrades you get in alpha 02. And also against hard structures in later levels.
According to the testing I did to day the flamer with the current values
Damage 46
Periodic damage 16
Rate of fire 34
should do around 1400 damage per minute vs a new paradigm scorpion halftrack medium cannon that’s around 700 impact damage per minute and around 700 burn damage per minute now obviously that depends on how many shots miss the target so it may be a little less or a little more but on average it should be around 1400.
Now I'll grant you that is stronger than the medium cannon but that's irrelevant since the medium cannon is underpowered and needs buffing because right now the lancer is a good deal stronger then the medium cannon as you can see from my calculations and in game test data
Lancer
Damage per shot 150 x 2
Rate of Fire 10
Accuracy 60%
Scorpion body with composite alloys 16 kinetic, 12 thermal
Propulsion Modifier Halftracks 120%
(Damage Per Shot x Propulsion Modifier - Target Armour) x Rate of Fire x Accuracy
(300 x 1.2 - 16) x 10 x 0.6 = 2064 damage per minute
Now since I was unsure how much damage per minute the lancer should do I increased the health of the target a Scorpion Halftrack Medium Cannon by 5000 to make sure that it had enough health to survive taking 10 hits i also made sure to apply the composite alloys armour upgrade to make sure that the armour value was the same as the new paradigm units.
I then force fired on the target 10 times and noted down the damage after each test you can see the result below
7442 - 5966 = 1476
7442 - 5638 = 1804
7442 - 6130 = 1312
7442 - 4818 = 2624
The first value is the starting health, the second value is the remaining health after taking 10 hits from a single lancer the third value is the total damage done for that test so you can see that your calculations for the lancer are completely wrong and the lancer is in fact doing between 1312 and 2624 damage per minute depending on how may rounds actually hit the target.
which by extension means that the balancing for the medium cannon is also wrong, and in fact the medium cannon should be doing something like 3 times the damage it is currently if its supposed to be a viable alternative for the lancer.
This is normally the way I verify my calculations because even using the right formula due to the fact that accuracy adds an element of randomness to the damage done you will never be able to exactly calculate the damage per minute the best you can do is an approximation this is still helpful mind you and is a lot faster then doing in game testing but while in game testing is slower its also more accurate especially if you run the same test multiple times I find 4 or 5 times is usually a good enough sample size to figure out what i need to know.
to be honest since the balancing on the medium cannon is wrong as i have just proven this is irrelevant, and actually around 700 to 800 damage per minute against enemy units for the bunker buster is in fact quite reasonable but if you still think its to much then you could reduce the modified to say 80 which would make the damage per minute around 500 to 600 vs enemy units certainly i don't think it should be lower then this or the bunker buster wont be-able to inflict sufficient damage to defend it's selfIn alpha 06 the Bunker Buster becomes as powerful as the Medium Cannon. That shouldn't be. A calculation against a tracked Scorpion body NP unit. Armor of the Scorpion body with one upgrade 15.6. For my calculation, I round up.
Medium Cannon
Damage: 64
ROF: 30
Accuracy: 50
Bunker Buster
Damage: 120
ROF: 10
Accuracy: 70
Damage formula from Bethrezen: (Damage Per Shot x Propulsion Modifier - Target Armour) x Rate of Fire x Accuracy
Medium Cannon
(64 x 100% - 16) x 30 x 50% = 720
Bunker Buster
(120 x 100% - 16) x 10 x 70% = 728
That would make the Medium Cannon obsolete. Generally, I'm no friend of making the Bunker Buster too useful against tanks. To make them no longer totally helpless we can increase the weaponmodifier to 50 and increase the ROF a bit. But the Bunker Buster is a specialized weapon against structures and that's what he should stay.
again here are some calculations and in game test data i took for the bunker buster to day
Bunker Buster
Damage per shot 120
Rate of Fire 10
Accuracy 70%
Scorpion body with composite alloys 16 kinetic, 12 thermal
Propulsion Modifier Halftracks 100%
(Damage Per Shot x Propulsion Modifier - Target Armour) x Rate of Fire x Accuracy
(120 x 1 -16) x 10 x 0.7 = 728
The math predicts a damage per minute of 728 so let's test that to see if it's right.
942 - 110 = 832
942 - 110 = 832
942 - 6 = 936
942 - 214 = 728
once again the the first value 942 is the starting health of the target, the second value 110 is the remaining health after taking 10 hits from the bunker buster, the third value 832 is the total damage inflicted after shooting 10 times.
so we can see that the in game test data agrees with the damage calculation so we know that it's correct.
I have tried different permutations but currently its not possible to have the medium cannon run at about 75% speed on both tracks and half tracksWith the weight changes for the Medium Cannon and the tracked propulsion, all units become too fast. In alpha 06 the Medium Cannon is running with MaxSpeed both with half-tracks and tracks. Also the Lancer. And that before the engine upgrade. That's too soon to run with MaxSpeed.
if you make the medium cannon heavier to make it slower on half tracks then its to slow on tracks if you decrease the weight to make it faster on tracks then its ends up being a bit to quick on half tracks unfortunately there is nothing that can be done about this but I don’t have an issue with the medium cannon running at full speed on half tracks since it looses some of the extra protection that tracks provide
A medium cannon on a cobra body and half tracks only has 750 hp on but on tracks its has 1000 hp so loosing health but gaining speed is an acceptable trade off.
It looks for me that messing around with weight values for changing unit speed is more complicated than it looked at first glance. So I'm of the opinion that we should concentrate us on making several weapons valuable choices and wait with speed changes after we finished that.
Depends on how you look at it if you assume that heavier units like cannons should move at about 75% of there top speed on tracks due to the fact they gain more durability then gaining speed at the expense of durability is an acceptable trade off, so the fact that stuff like the medium cannon runs at full speed on half tracks is ok because it looses that durability due to the fact half tracks are faster but more lightly armoured.
also berserk cyborg already alerted me to the fact that the weight balancing on the medium cannon needed adjusting so i already adjusted this in the last build i posted, the medium cannon will still run at full speed on half tracks but will only move at about 70% of the top speed on tracks so i think how i have things should be a reasonable compromise.
Currently for a lancer on a cobra body and halftracks it costs 200, for a light cannon on half tracks and a cobra body the cost is 162, for a medium cannon on half tracks and a cobra body the cost is 181 which is half way between the lancer and the light cannon.OK, I accept your arguments. But I think the weapons are still too cheap so I suggest the following costs:
Medium Cannon: 100
Lancer: 125
Heavy Cannon: 125
I don’t think it’s a good idea to make them more than about 200 per unit or you won't have the resources to use them, because usually when I get to alpha 6 I only have around 3000 power and with that I have to upgrade my tank factories, build the command relay centre and research the command turret so I can build commanders build repair bays upgrade my units to medium bodies, and that’s all before I get the first artefact and have to spend a bunch more resources researching everything so any more than 200 a units and I cant use them there to expensive even at 200 a unit I usually run out of resources before I'm able to build a full squad of 18 units because 18 x 200 is 3600, now I'll grant you that you do get some resources back when you recycle and it’s a good job to or I'd only be able to upgrade 1 squad
I'm not a big fan of doing that it makes no sense to me to have to research 1 weapon to get another, I'd much prefair to be able to just research the lancer and bunker buster and ignore the mini rocket pod, and medium cannon since both of these still need workFor the research order to the Lancer, we can make the MRP the prerequisite of the Lancer and the Bunker Buster so that you get the Lancer and the Bunker Buster immediately after the MRP is researched. I still like the idea with the new artifact "Rocket Technology" but because Berserk Cyborg don't like it I think this would be a good compromise.
well I'm afraid this is where you are wrong as i already explained above the lancer is in fact doing between 1312 and 2624 damage per minute depending on how may rounds actually hit the target, and the in game test data backs this upYou are doing the same mistake as twice (if I'm right) before. A ROF for the Lancer of 10 shown in the screen in the game means that the Lancer is shooting 5 times 2 rockets per minute. Not 10 times two rockets as in your calculation. Also, you have to subtract the armor from every rocket. So the calculation becomes this:
(150 x 1.2 - 16) x 10 x 0.6 = 984
I calculated above the damage for Medium Cannon and Bunker Buster against a tracked unit and do it here for comparison again for your half-tracked unit.
Medium Cannon:
(64 x 1.05 - 16) x 30 x 0.5 = 768
Bunker Buster:
(120 x 1 - 16) x 10 x 0.7 = 728
As you can see the Lancer isn't so much more powerful.
I'm surprised that your testing in the game confirmed your wrong calculation so please explain to us what you exactly did for this tests. Maybe I made a mistake but I'm pretty sure that I calculated right.
7442 - 5966 = 1476
7442 - 5638 = 1804
7442 - 6130 = 1312
7442 - 4818 = 2624
The first value 7442 is the starting health of the target
the second value 5966 is the remaining health after taking 10 hits from a single lancer
The third value 1476 is the total damage done for that test
so once again you can see that your calculations for the lancer are completely wrong which means that the balancing for the medium cannon is also wrong as is everything that you have based off of this, this is why you should always verify your calculations to make sure that they match with what is actually happening in game.
in case you don't believe me try testing the damage of the lancer in game your self build a target dummy that has lots of health make a note of the health before starting then take a single shot at the target if both rockets hit the damage should around 300 if only a single rocket hits the damage should be around 150 then against your target dummy again note down the starting health value take 10 shots and then note down the remaining health subtract the remaining health from the starting health and that will tell you how much damage was done then rinse and repeat 4 or 5 times to get a decent sample size.