Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

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Berserk Cyborg
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 21 Nov 2018, 01:00

Yeah, just tried the mini-pods. They are still effective against the scavengers. Too many walls and cyborgs from here on out so its uses are minimal now. Medium-cannon are much better than in Alpha 8 due to that last damage upgrade, which is nice. Lancers still are doing good. HMG, flamer, and Mini-rocket-artillery all are great choices against cyborgs. MRA probably is the best since it can hit hardcrete structures well.

Did the cyborgs seem to be weak to you? I'll need to check them again.

The transporter reinforcements could undergo a little tweaking. I saw it drop off a group of almost all bunker busters which is pretty useless.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 25 Nov 2018, 17:35

Berserk Cyborg wrote:The transporter reinforcements could undergo a little tweaking. I saw it drop off a group of almost all bunker busters which is pretty useless.
I think we should remove the bunker busters from this level. It made sense in alpha 07 where the NP attacked a base. But in alpha 09 we are attacking the base and NP is fighting tanks. My suggestion: Replace the bunker buster with a new template: tracked scorpion heavy machine gun. And for the scout reinforcements replace the HMG by mortars (template npmor in templates.js). Thereby the sensor tanks in the scout reinforcements are making more sense.
Berserk Cyborg wrote:Did the cyborgs seem to be weak to you? I'll need to check them again.
It's a neverending discussion about the strength of the cyborgs. I think it would be enough if we give their weapons more power. For example, the cyborg cannon has a base damage of 30 and a firePause of 40 at the moment. That are the values of the light cannon in the current master version. So to make the cyborgs stronger I would prefer to adjust the values of their weapons.
Machinegunner: Values of the HMG
Heavy Gunner: Values of the Light Cannon
Cyborg Flamer: Values of the Flamer
Cyborg Lancer: Values of the Lancer

I'm also thinking about to give all Collective units Propulsion II and all Nexus units Propulsion III. This would make Beta and Gamma Mission generally tougher.

Edit: If you agree with the changed values of the four cyborgs, changed weapons.json is added. I also changed the range of the cyborg weapons in the way that the range of the cyborg weapon is one tile shorter than the range of the tank weapon. Tank HMG: 7.5 tiles; Cyborg HMG 6.5 tiles and so on.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Forgon » 25 Nov 2018, 17:56

alfred007 wrote:
25 Nov 2018, 17:35
[...] I'm also thinking about to give all Collective units Propulsion II and all Nexus units Propulsion III. This would make Beta and Gamma Mission generally tougher.
This would make it more difficult for players to assess the strength of enemy tanks.
Afaik propulsion II is currently only used in difficulty "Hard" and propulsion III in difficulty "Insane" (since commit 00fa4c34d31fe0c27c4a5f7a84925a825cec46c0). Since most players have heard of neither, I would prefer to keep it that way.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 25 Nov 2018, 18:04

Forgon wrote:
25 Nov 2018, 17:56
alfred007 wrote:
25 Nov 2018, 17:35
[...] I'm also thinking about to give all Collective units Propulsion II and all Nexus units Propulsion III. This would make Beta and Gamma Mission generally tougher.
This would make it more difficult for players to assess the strength of enemy tanks.
Afaik propulsion II is currently only used in difficulty "Hard" and propulsion III in difficulty "Insane" (since commit 00fa4c34d31fe0c27c4a5f7a84925a825cec46c0). Since most players have heard of neither, I would prefer to keep it that way.
Ah, I forgot that.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 25 Nov 2018, 19:07

alfred007 wrote: I think we should remove the bunker busters from this level. It made sense in alpha 07 where the NP attacked a base. But in alpha 09 we are attacking the base and NP is fighting tanks. My suggestion: Replace the bunker buster with a new template: tracked scorpion heavy machine gun. And for the scout reinforcements replace the HMG by mortars (template npmor in templates.js). Thereby the sensor tanks in the scout reinforcements are making more sense.
Yeah, that seems fine. They already have cannons and mortars to deal with hardcrete anyway.

I'll try your cyborg weapon changes.
Forgon wrote: This would make it more difficult for players to assess the strength of enemy tanks.
Afaik propulsion II is currently only used in difficulty "Hard" and propulsion III in difficulty "Insane" (since commit 00fa4c34d31fe0c27c4a5f7a84925a825cec46c0). Since most players have heard of neither, I would prefer to keep it that way.
A mission script must specify a propulsion type for it to be enabled, like this:

Code: Select all

camSetPropulsionTypeLimit(3); //use type three propulsion if possible
None do atm since I never got around to testing it much. The few times I did test it made some mission too tough (see spoiler in viewtopic.php?t=12714&p=140135#p140135). Maybe we can try it when the balance mod gets to Beta/Gamma.

Edit: Forgot how it worked. eventStartLevel in libcampaign disables it right now so if it were removed Hard and Insane would automatically change the propulsion levels to 2 and 3 respectively. Mission scripts can call a camSetPropulsionTypeLimit() to force a propulsion level.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 25 Nov 2018, 21:35

Changed out the bunker-busters for the new HMG tracked scorpion template. A Sensor will show up in the transporter group if mortars are chosen. Then for Alpha 10/11 I updated the research lists and gave the metal03 upgrade to the NP in Alpha 10. And included the cyborg weapon changes.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 26 Nov 2018, 22:09

I made a small mistake in weapons.json. I forgot that the lancer is shooting 2 rockets at once. So if you want to emulate it for the cyborg lancer you have to set the firePause to 60 for the cyborg, not to 120 as I did. I change this by my own in your mod.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 26 Nov 2018, 23:41

I made a test with your latest mod an I think we should change something with NP reinforcements. With the current script, you can have too many Mantis Tracked Medium Cannons for the NP. Every tank has 2000 HP and if the NP gets reinforcements of 6-7 of these tanks every two minutes (insane difficulty) it becomes too difficult to fight the NP. I could beat them with full Medium cannon. But it was a weird situation as you can see in the picture below. If the NP would be able to move out of the canyon the player would get huuuuge problems. I suggest we alternate the reinforcement transport with scouts and heavy units. Logs are also added.
wz2100-20181126_214751-SUB_1_5.png
Cyborgs are now a bigger threat because they deal more damage than before. You have to destroy the NP repair facility and the cyborg factory very soon if you want to have a chance.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 27 Nov 2018, 01:40

alfred007 wrote: I made a test with your latest mod an I think we should change something with NP reinforcements. With the current script, you can have too many Mantis Tracked Medium Cannons for the NP. ... I suggest we alternate the reinforcement transport with scouts and heavy units.
Made it alternate full groups of scouts and heavies like in Alpha 7 and reduced the cyborg rocket firepause.
We could also reduce the number of medium cannons if it's still a problem.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 02 Dec 2018, 12:31

Berserk Cyborg wrote:We could also reduce the number of medium cannons if it's still a problem.
Yup, we should do it. I made a new test and it's still a little bit too tough. To destroy a group of 8 medium cannons from a reinforcement transport takes so much time that the next transport is coming and the factories are also producing new units meanwhile. I think we should reduce it to not more than 4 and not less than 2 medium cannons per transport. Logs are also again added.
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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 02 Dec 2018, 21:31

alfred007 wrote:
02 Dec 2018, 12:31
Berserk Cyborg wrote:We could also reduce the number of medium cannons if it's still a problem.
Yup, we should do it. I made a new test and it's still a little bit too tough. To destroy a group of 8 medium cannons from a reinforcement transport takes so much time that the next transport is coming and the factories are also producing new units meanwhile. I think we should reduce it to not more than 4 and not less than 2 medium cannons per transport. Logs are also again added.
I tried 3 heavies and it was alright. Probably could add one more unit if you want, though, like you said, anything over 4 and it'll be tough. Other than that I think Alpha 9 is good now.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 02 Dec 2018, 23:15

I made another test and I think for the moment we can let Alpha 09 as it is now. Maybe after we finished the new balance (whenever that will be) we can make more tests how much tougher we can make Alpha 09 without making it too tough. Now we should move forward. I think Alpha 10 will be finished very soon, Alpha 11 will take some time and Alpha 12 will be the level with the most work we have to do. It'll be fun. :)

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 08 Dec 2018, 00:00

Well, with the current state of Alpha 10 it would greatly encourage a player to have some defenses built or at least a thought-out base like for Beta-end. Those big groups of bombards and heavy-cannons just plow right through hardcrete structures (but still soften them good if defenses are placed good). Might want to take away the metals-03 upgrade here, though I'll see what you think.

No mod uploaded since the last one has the research for Alpha 10/11 already.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 08 Dec 2018, 18:22

Berserk Cyborg wrote:Might want to take away the metals-03 upgrade here, though I'll see what you think.
I agree. You have to fight the toughest units of the NP and they come in a large amount at the same time. It's very difficult not to lose units here. And the usual strategy to use only lancers doesn't work because of the new modifiers. I like it because you have to use different weapons at different LZs. You don't have to post a new mod, I can change the upgrade in the script by my own.

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Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 09 Dec 2018, 20:35

I made another test with metals-02 upgrade for the NP and I think now it's ok. You have to think carefully about where to place defenses and your units. But with a good strategy, the NP has no chance. If you agree we can move forward to alpha 11. Logs are added.
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