Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

The projects speaking tube.
Add your two cents if you want to.
User avatar
Berserk Cyborg
Code contributor
Code contributor
Posts: 615
Joined: 26 Sep 2016, 19:56

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 20 Jun 2018, 19:41

Bethrezen wrote:Ok so giving the latest iteration of the cambalance mod a go and I notice a small mistake on on alpha 04 even though the base has been destroyed the little red light is still flashing.

Image
Apparently loading map group labels is not quite perfect yet. Same thing that caused Alpha 2 to never win all that time ago when reloading saves. Well, replaced all the group labels with areas and, as a slight behavior change, made it a very small base around that scavenger lab.
Bethrezen wrote: I also noticed another glitch some times when i attack this flame tower the new paradigm base will incorrectly activate.
Removed it.

I granted mortar upgrades up to damage Mk2 and ROF on Alpha 4, although I suspect that means the base damage of mortar may be too weak.

I used alfred007's suggestions for cannons and all the rest of the research tree, aside from some small edits, it is pretty much the same you wrote earlier. Now, because of that, I removed the cannon damage upgrade from everyone on Alpha 5 since that is otherwise too much for little viper half-tracks to handle for long.

For an overview of the partially complete research tree you can look at it here.
camBalance.wz
(110.26 KiB) Downloaded 17 times

Bethrezen
Regular
Regular
Posts: 584
Joined: 25 Sep 2009, 02:05

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 20 Jun 2018, 20:02

Against what? Scavengers? Walls? Turrets? NP Units? Everything?
I'm talking in general, if you play alpha 5 with a single squad of heavy machine-guns and 2 repair units, then play the level again but this time use light cannons with the base damage of 30 and rate of fire of 60 then you will find that from a game play perspective both play pritty much the same.
That's right but if you talk about game experience we don't need a second damage upgrade for the mortar because I beat the NP with just one damage upgrade. And I was never talking about that these values won't work. What I say is that you are on the way to an overpowered weapon.
overpowered how when light cannons perform almost identically to heavy machine-guns on alpha 05 if they have a base damage of 30 and a rate of fire of 60.

Of course after further experimenting i have found its actually better to have a slight higher base damage and slight lower rate of fire to account for the damage reduction modifiers absorbing a chunk of each shots damage so base of around 40 to 50 and a rate of fire of around 30 seems to be about right.

alfred007
Trained
Trained
Posts: 435
Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 06:25
Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 20 Jun 2018, 20:10

overpowered how when light cannons perform almost identically to heavy machine-guns on alpha 05 if they have a base damage of 30 and a rate of fire of 60.
Overpowered as soon as you make medium and heavy cannon stronger than the light cannon. The heavy cannon will be at the end overpowered, not the light cannon.

User avatar
Berserk Cyborg
Code contributor
Code contributor
Posts: 615
Joined: 26 Sep 2016, 19:56

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 20 Jun 2018, 20:12

Uh, wait... O_o Apparently "ALL ROUNDER" is the same as "ANTI AIR" effect.

Code: Select all

else if (strcmp(weaponEffect, "ANTI AIRCRAFT") == 0 || strcmp(weaponEffect, "ALL ROUNDER") == 0)
{
	*effect = WE_ANTI_AIRCRAFT;
}
I see. Multiplayer anti-air weapons take on the "ANTI TANK" effect. So we must change all weapons with "ANTI AIR" into something else then. And remove the "ANTI AIR" modifiers.

So that means all our cannons, and other weapons, are using the anti-air modifier right now.

Bethrezen
Regular
Regular
Posts: 584
Joined: 25 Sep 2009, 02:05

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 20 Jun 2018, 20:17

Berserk Cyborg wrote:Uh, wait... O_o Apparently "ALL ROUNDER" is the same as "ANTI AIR" effect.

Code: Select all

    else if (strcmp(weaponEffect, "ANTI AIRCRAFT") == 0 || strcmp(weaponEffect, "ALL ROUNDER") == 0)
    {
       *effect = WE_ANTI_AIRCRAFT;
    }
I see. Multiplayer anti-air weapons take on the "ANTI TANK" effect. So we must change all weapons with "ANTI AIR" into something else then. And remove the "ANTI AIR" modifiers.
humm I though something was a bit funny with ALL ROUNDER when no matter what i did I couldn't make light cannons more effective again the new paradigms turrets even when i made light cannons as strong as lancers.

Here is a though why not change ALL ROUNDER to GENERAL PURPOSE and then remove ALL ROUNDER

alfred007
Trained
Trained
Posts: 435
Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 06:25
Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 20 Jun 2018, 20:24

I see. Multiplayer anti-air weapons take on the "ANTI TANK" effect. So we must change all weapons with "ANTI AIR" into something else then. And remove the "ANTI AIR" modifiers.
What about ANTI VTOL? And shouldn't we rename then the ANTI AIR modifiers into ANTI VTOL modifiers instead or removing them?

Bethrezen
Regular
Regular
Posts: 584
Joined: 25 Sep 2009, 02:05

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 20 Jun 2018, 20:26

What about ANTI VTOL? And shouldn't we rename then the ANTI AIR modifiers into ANTI VTOL modifiers instead or removing them?
or just fix the buggy code so that anti air and all rounder are no longer the same thing because anti air weapons are not all rounders they should only affect air craft and as for things like bomb bays they should use the general purpose modifier.

of course where you might get issues with this however is when weapons can attack both air and ground targets, like scourge missiles or vtol mounted lancers.

alfred007
Trained
Trained
Posts: 435
Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 06:25
Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 20 Jun 2018, 20:31

Bethrezen wrote:
What about ANTI VTOL? And shouldn't we rename then the ANTI AIR modifiers into ANTI VTOL modifiers instead or removing them?
or just fix the buggy code so that anti air and all rounder are no longer the same thing.
I think this is hardcoded in the src-folder (Edit: stats.cpp in the src folder). I just modified weapons.json, weaponmodifier.json and structuremodifier.json this way that I replaced "AIRCRAFT" with "VTOL". I added the modified files for testing.
Attachments
Modified files.zip
(8.48 KiB) Downloaded 10 times
Last edited by alfred007 on 20 Jun 2018, 20:39, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Berserk Cyborg
Code contributor
Code contributor
Posts: 615
Joined: 26 Sep 2016, 19:56

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Berserk Cyborg » 20 Jun 2018, 20:36

alfred007 wrote: I think this is hardcoded in the src-folder. I just modified weapons.json, weaponmodifier.json and structuremodifier.json this way that I replaced "AIRCRAFT" with "VTOL". I added the modified files for testing.
Yep. The weapon effects are not dynamically loaded yet. I only just discovered this so I am unsure why these two effects are alternatives to each other.

Bethrezen
Regular
Regular
Posts: 584
Joined: 25 Sep 2009, 02:05

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 20 Jun 2018, 20:38

Berserk Cyborg wrote:
alfred007 wrote:I think this is hardcoded in the src-folder. I just modified weapons.json, weaponmodifier.json and structuremodifier.json this way that I replaced "AIRCRAFT" with "VTOL". I added the modified files for testing.
Yep. The weapon effects are not dynamically loaded yet. I only just discovered this so I am unsure why these two effects are alternatives to each other.
I guess the easiest thing to do then is just change all rounder to general purpose, as we can't use all rounder since all rounder and anti air are the same thing.

in any event I'll hold fire till ya decide how ya want to address this and release an updated mod with this fixed.

alfred007
Trained
Trained
Posts: 435
Joined: 31 Jul 2016, 06:25
Location: Stuttgart, Germany

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by alfred007 » 20 Jun 2018, 20:45

What is about deleting the ANTI AIRCRAFT modifiers in the xxxmodifiers.json files and give the ALL ROUNDER for lift the value of the ANTI AIRCRAFT modifier? AA weapons just attack VTOL so they ignore the other modifier values and the All-rounder-weapons can't attack VTOL's and will ignore this modifier.

Edit: I modified the modifier-files that way and add them for an alternative testing.
Attachments
Modified files V1.1.zip
(753 Bytes) Downloaded 8 times

Bethrezen
Regular
Regular
Posts: 584
Joined: 25 Sep 2009, 02:05

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 20 Jun 2018, 20:55

What is about deleting the ANTI AIRCRAFT modifiers in the xxxmodifiers.json files and give the ALL ROUNDER for lift the value of the ANTI AIRCRAFT modifier? AA weapons just attack VTOL so they ignore the other modifier values and the All-rounder-weapons can't attack VTOL's and will ignore this modifier.
probably better to keep the 2 separate or it might cause confusion, and since anti air weapons only affect air craft then the other values should be removed from the anti air modifier.

so

Code: Select all

"ANTI AIRCRAFT": {
        "Half-Tracked": 100,
        "Hover": 100,
        "Legged": 100,
        "Lift": 110,
        "Tracked": 100,
        "Wheeled": 100
    },
becomes

Code: Select all

"ANTI AIRCRAFT": {
        "Lift": 110,
    },
and

Code: Select all

"ANTI AIRCRAFT": {
        "BUNKER": 40,
        "HARD": 30,
        "MEDIUM": 40,
        "SOFT": 100
    },
should be remove completely since anti air weapons cant shoot at buildings

and finaly

Code: Select all

"ALL ROUNDER": {
        "BUNKER": 75,
        "HARD": 100,
        "MEDIUM": 115,
        "SOFT": 130
    },
becomes

Code: Select all

"GENERAL PURPOSE": {
        "BUNKER": 75,
        "HARD": 100,
        "MEDIUM": 115,
        "SOFT": 130
    },
We should also probably remove the lift value from the other modifiers and do a couple of new modifier for weapons that can shoot at both air and ground targets such as machine-guns and scourge missiles maybe something like

Code: Select all

"ANTI PERSONNEL & ANTI AIR ": {
    },
in the case of machine-guns and

Code: Select all

"ANTI TANK & ANTI AIR ": {
    },
in the case of scourge missiles.

of course if you only wanted to do 1 new modifier you could just go with

Code: Select all

"DUEL PURPOSE": {
    },
the problem with that is its less clear then the previous 2 although going with

Code: Select all

"AIR and GROUND": {
    },
would sort that but you would still be left with the problem that scourge missiles are anti tank weapons where machine-guns are anti personnel weapon so it might be difficult to get a single modifier for both to work right.

Bethrezen
Regular
Regular
Posts: 584
Joined: 25 Sep 2009, 02:05

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by Bethrezen » 20 Jun 2018, 21:15

while I'm thinking about it why can't AAA shoot at ground targets ? since AAA weapons are basically quad cannons or duel assault guns, more over how come the standard assault gun is so weak against air craft when its basically exactly the same as the duel AAA version.

nearo
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 19
Joined: 31 Mar 2010, 17:50

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by nearo » 20 Jun 2018, 21:31

I think AA weapons can hurt other targets than VTOLs with their splash damage. However this happens rarely and the damage is very low.
Bethrezen wrote:while I'm thinking about it why can't AAA shoot at ground targets ? since AAA weapons are basically quad cannons or duel assault guns, more over how come the standard assault gun is so weak against air craft when its basically exactly the same as the duel AAA version.
I think AA guns would be overpowered against ground targets. If you start to nerf them they would become useless against VTOLs.
Also WW is not exactly the same as AG because WW shoots explosive rounds.
Bethrezen wrote:We should also probably remove the lift value from the other modifiers and do a couple of new modifier for weapons that can shoot at both air and ground targets such as machine-guns and scourge missiles maybe something like
The reason there is a "LIFT" modifier for every weapon is because everything can shoot at VTOLs when they are not flying (except AA weapons).

User avatar
WZ2100ModsFAn
Trained
Trained
Posts: 267
Joined: 15 Apr 2018, 17:25
Location: United States.

Re: Help needed testing 3.2.x Campaign games!

Post by WZ2100ModsFAn » 20 Jun 2018, 23:44

I don't agree with removing the anti aircraft

let's just keep that instead of removing it off of stats.cpp and the modifiers
Apologies if i dont see your post
central time usa

Post Reply