Thanks !?!

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Lord Apocalypse
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Thanks !?!

Post by Lord Apocalypse » 25 May 2012, 02:54

You may also want to thank the programmers from Westwood(?) for making Dune 2, the great grandfather of modern RTS games.

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Re: Thanks

Post by crass » 25 May 2012, 20:11

Lord Apocalypse wrote:You may also want to thank the programmers from Westwood(?) for making Dune 2, the great grandfather of modern RTS games.
O_o
of all the stupid things to say, they didn't have anything to do with this game!

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Re: Thanks

Post by Lord Apocalypse » 25 May 2012, 20:47

Not directly, but without dune 2 where would all the great RTS games be. Thank the current devs for keeping WZ alive, thank Pumpkin for creating WZ, but don't forget those who brought about the RTS craze. Its like saying that you can't thank id for creating the FPS craze, or the creators of Pong for computer gaming. Everything done has some impact on each successive generation of titles. W/O D2 what would have happened to C&C, TA, SC, WC, Z, etc. Where would Unreal and Crysis be if not for Wolfenstein 3D (though this is not the first FPS, that was done a few decades earlier). id had nothing to do with Unreal or Crysis except create the genre of future FPS games, the same can be said of Dune 2 unless someone knows of an OLDER RTS game.
You can't really talk about the real-time strategy genre without giving a nod to Dune II, the title that kicked off the phenomena. Now, it wasn't the first real-time game: that honor typically goes to Herzog Zwei, released for the Sega Genesis in 1989. But Dune II was the first RTS for the PC, and the genre that boomed in the decade that followed traces its roots back to this title (see our Hall of Fame from December '99).
Read more here: http://www.gamespy.com/articles/494/494673p1.html

I was rather upset WZ didn't make this list, but rather suprised that TA beat the crap out of StarCraft hehe.

So, stupid? No.
Did they have anything to do with WZ development? Indirectly by launching the genre.
Do they deserve our thanks? Maybe not as much as Alex L, Alex M, and other, or even the current crop of devs. Nonetheless they still deserve our appreciation and a bow for every great RTS game that followed (for me thats TA and WZ).

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Re: Thanks

Post by Rman Virgil » 28 May 2012, 08:57

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Quick OT...

Even Dune 2 had clear debts to specific earlier strat games.

One of the best histories of the RTS genre I've come across:

http://www.gamereplays.org/portals.php? ... rategy_pt1

And some of what are considered WZs unique GPM contributions to the genre were actually invented by living legend, Peter Molineux some 5-6 years prior in his classic, groundbreaking, "Syndicate" series.

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Re: Thanks

Post by zydonk » 28 May 2012, 11:28

Ah, Synd. I gave a friend a copy way back when, but he said he had to stop playing it because he got so angry at the slaughter of the innocents. I wonder if he watches the news much nowadays.

Great music/sound track, though, one of the very best...

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Re: Thanks

Post by crass » 28 May 2012, 19:19

the point is this is a thanks thread for THIS GAME not something that was made by other people in the past :roll:

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Re: Thanks

Post by Rman Virgil » 28 May 2012, 21:41

crass wrote:the point is this is a thanks thread for THIS GAME not something that was made by other people in the past :roll:
Within the me-centric bubble of your perceptions that may be all you can see.

For others it is thanks for the game, all that made its creation possible in the first place, its continuous growth and development 14 years after retail release by folks fueled with inspirations and work derived from outside the game proper.

Perhaps you will someday be able to appreciate this type of comprehensive PoV and also have achieved greater proficiency in the art of conversation. Anything is possible, but is it probable? Time will tell. Though I think I'd put money on a Lunar Colony first. :3

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Impact = C x (R + E + A + T + E)

Contrast
Reach
Exposure
Articulation
Trust
Echo
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Re: Thanks

Post by Lord Apocalypse » 28 May 2012, 22:33

Ok ok.. so thanking people only for this game? Then thank ME for trying to keep NEWST motivated and together during Rman's absence oh so long ago. Or thank Rman for everything he has done for this community since the foundation of NEWST. Might as well thank Troman, Bones0, Lord Gwala, Cowboy, Prometheous, and everyone else who worked in NEWST :P

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Re: Thanks

Post by crass » 28 May 2012, 23:07

Lord Apocalypse wrote:Ok ok.. so thanking people only for this game? Then thank ME for trying to keep NEWST motivated and together during Rman's absence oh so long ago. Or thank Rman for everything he has done for this community since the foundation of NEWST. Might as well thank Troman, Bones0, Lord Gwala, Cowboy, Prometheous, and everyone else who worked in NEWST :P
:roll: what has newst have to do with THIS game? nothing. if I read correctly newst didn't do any releases
let me help you on who to thank, and look no newst or any of those people except for troman
Original game developed by Pumpkin Studios, and published by EIDOS Interactive.

The Warzone 2100 Project team, in alphabetical order:

Thomas Barlow <Mysteryem> : 3D Graphics
-- <Buginator> : Programming
Bruce V. Edwards <cathuria> : 2D/3D Graphics
-- <Cyp> : Programming
-- <dak180> : MacOSX Packaging
Elio Gubser <elio, ohyeh> : 2D Graphics
Rene Jochum <fastdeath / pcdummy> : Programming and Webmaster
Steven Koenig <kreuvf> : Documentation, translation
Gerard Krol <gerard_> : Programming, Textures
Guangcong Luo <Zarel> : Programming, Balancing, and Documentation
Per I. Mathisen <per / sendai> : Programming
Kim Metcalfe <lav-coyote25> : Documentation, Maps and Support
Christian Ohm <cybersphinx> : Programming
Giel van Schijndel <Giel> : Programming and Debian Linux and Windows Packaging
Dennis Schridde <devurandom> : Programming and general Linux and Windows Packaging
Freddie Witherden <EvilGuru> : Programming and MacOSX Packaging

Former contributors to the GPL version, in alphabetical order:

Scott Balneaves <sbalneav> : Programming
Roman C. <troman> : Programming and Scripting + Scripting-engine rewrite and AI
Denis Dupeyron <charun> : Programming
Don Edwards : 2D Graphics support
Mike Gilmore <Chojun> : Programming
-- <Hatsjoe> : 2D Graphics
Carl Hee <Watermelon> : Programming + Multiturrets
Adam Holland
Stefan Huehner <shuehner> : Programming + original 64bit support
Ari Johnson <iamtheari> : Programming and MacOSX Packaging + original MacOSX port
Martin Koller <mkoller> : Programming
Angus Lees <gus> : Debian Packaging
Dennis Luxen <pret> : Programming
Kevin Malec <Kevin`> : Websupport
Dion Mendel <noid> : Programming, original Linux port
Phil Procario <GrimMoroe, grimandmandy> : 3D Graphics
-- <Pseudonym404> : Programming + original 64bit support
Victor Qamly <vqamly> : Programming
Marcus Rast <charon> : Programming
Ben Russon <grizzly> : Support
Hylke van der Schaaf <TheNoid> : Programming
Dmitri Shuralyov <shurcool> : Programming
Rodolphe Suescun <rodzilla> : Programming
-- <vs2k5> : Programming
Tim P. <kamaze> : Webmaster


Non-project members whose content has been used in Warzone, in alphabetical order:

Tristan Bethe : Terrain textures
Jennifer Boyer : Terrain textures
Bart Everson : Terrain textures
Mitch Featherston : Terrain textures
Peter Kaminski : Terrain textures
Konstantin Kleine-Niermann : Terrain textures
Sherrie Thai : Terrain textures
Mark A. Vargas : Terrain textures

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Re: Thanks

Post by Rman Virgil » 29 May 2012, 01:00

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@crass: You are terribly missinformed and that list is sadly and grossly incomplete. Any member of the Pumpkin Team who created WZ could set you straight on what NEWST contributed to the game. So can all the extant archives and documents werein members of the Pumpkin Team communicated directly with us, sent us thier developer assets straight from England so we could continue to working on the game. But how about you look at the README that comes with the distro of the game right now and always, written by Alex Mclean of Pumpkin Studios, chief software engineer and designer of the original WZ game. Only 2 folks are mentioned by name. One is an executive at Eidos Inc, the company that financed and distributed WZ, and the other person is me. Got it. LA is speaking the truth. You are not.

=======>

For sure LA, there are a number of folks who made trully crucial and substantive contributions along this journey from '99 to here who should be remembered but are not save in the memories of diehard vets like us. That nags at me. I cannot, & donot, want to forget them and what they did. Just a few months ago I caught sight of Laws215 in these bbs. He made a simple post and was treated like he was a shmuck. Laws215 who could do everything, and I mean everything, at the highest level and he did. A giant in the history of this game. He just went away after that brief encounter. That really... well... I could do nothing to alter it. Have seen the like on a number of ocassions with others over the years. And today, of course.

But at the same time I understand how most now, so many years post liberation, could care less about any of that. You can talk about that history till your blue in the face but it won't make any difference....if you didn't live it, how can you ever really know it. I'm grateful to have experienced it; a different era, a different culture, quite extraordinary, never to be duplicated and as such I endeavor to stay focused going forward on what I still have a passion to act on WZ-wise, what I still enjoy getting my hands dirty with, so to speak.

For me, Thomas Wolfe captured the sentiment best when he wrote:
You can't go back home to your family, back home to your childhood, ... back home to a young man's dreams of glory and of fame ... back home to places in the country, back home to the old forms and systems of things which once seemed everlasting but which are changing all the time- back home to the escapes of Time and Memory.
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Re: Thanks

Post by Lord Apocalypse » 29 May 2012, 01:47

crass wrote: :roll: what has newst have to do with THIS game? nothing. if I read correctly newst didn't do any releases
let me help you on who to thank, and look no newst or any of those people except for troman
Rman is right, but his history lesson is incomplete or more precisely cut short.

Even wikipedia counts us as part of WZ history though even it doesn't do our history justice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warzone_2100

So, let me be Frank (well no one can really be Frank, his words transcend anything anyone here can master), without the support of NEWST and its later revivals (Pumpkin-2, RTS.net) and the love of warzone from Rman this game would never have been released under the GPL. The source would be lost and no one would even care after this long. So much history has been lost, so many great mods, AI, maps... and so many people who have not returned after all these years. Probably because newcomers don't care to remember the past and what came before 2004.

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Re: Thanks

Post by Rman Virgil » 29 May 2012, 03:20

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Yea, LA, that Wikipedia article is sorely lacking in whole host of areas. After I looked at it I just turned away and never went back. I've been asked to write the history of the game on a number occassions and I certainly have the credentials to do it but for some reason I procrastinate. A couple years back one of the legendary developers of this project set me up with a writer of a game E-zine who wanted to write that story for publication. We made arrangements for an extended interview on IRC and I spent an hour and half typing responses to his questions. After.... said article, as far as I know, never saw the light of day. From the tone of his reactions it was beyond the scope of what he could do, telling the full story. And it also didn't fit his preconceptions, wasn't what he expected, neat and tidy.

I've concluded that folks post-liberation prefer to marginalize pre-liberation and ascribe liberation to a simple decision by Eidos in late '04. Why? Selective exposure maybe, to focus all the attention on post-liberation even if that means perpetuating a conterfactual accounting of pre-liberation. But really, I don't know. :3

Be that as it may, we know the truth LA. We had 2 totally public goals in '99: enhance the game in every way possible to keep it alive as part of an overall strategy to liberate the source while working closely with WZ Creators throughout to that end. It took 6 years but we succeeded in the end with those goals. Unprecidented. We know it. That's enough. If a counterfactual account is needed post liberation for the journey to continue, well, so be it. That doesnot change our experience, the facts of our lived reality or the value of our efforts.

I see no reason to beat what I see as a dead horse into the ground. So I'm just gonna let it be - like the tune. ;) Got new goals and visions to make real. Onward ho!

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Re: Thanks

Post by vexed » 29 May 2012, 04:18

While I would like to respond some day in detail about all this history, now isn't the time. :stressed:

So in a effort to try and fix things, I now point people that want to help to viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9467

Thanks!
/facepalm ...Grinch stole Warzone🙈🙉🙊 contra principia negantem non est disputandum
Super busy, don't expect a timely reply back.

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Re: Thanks

Post by crass » 31 May 2012, 00:19

Rman Virgil wrote:.

@crass: You are terribly missinformed and that list is sadly and grossly incomplete. Any member of the Pumpkin Team who created WZ could set you straight on what NEWST contributed to the game. So can all the extant archives and documents werein members of the Pumpkin Team communicated directly with us, sent us thier developer assets straight from England so we could continue to working on the game. But how about you look at the README that comes with the distro of the game right now and always, written by Alex Mclean of Pumpkin Studios, chief software engineer and designer of the original WZ game. Only 2 folks are mentioned by name. One is an executive at Eidos Inc, the company that financed and distributed WZ, and the other person is me. Got it. LA is speaking the truth. You are not.
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where am I wrong? show me one thing that is credited to newst for THIS version of the game? it would be like thanking a gardner for dropping a few seeds years ago and then goes away and from those seeds we now got a oak tree. while the gardner may come back many years later and say you should thank him most everyone would laugh since the gardner didn't take care of the seedling at all besides dropping the seeds
the only people we need to thank is pumpkin studios and eidos and these guys for keeping warzone alive

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Re: Thanks

Post by Berg » 31 May 2012, 00:30

crass wrote:where am I wrong? show me one thing that is credited to newst for THIS version of the game? it would be like thanking a gardner for dropping a few seeds years ago and then goes away and from those seeds we now got a oak tree. while the gardner may come back many years later and say you should thank him most everyone would laugh since the gardner didn't take care of the seedling at all besides dropping the seeds
the only people we need to thank is pumpkin studios and eidos and these guys for keeping warzone alive
Your comparison to dropping a seed is flawed ...
Without the seed you have no tree.
Its like saying he had no real input he just started it.. <---thats bad logic.

PS: Thanks to everyone here and from times past for all input.

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