Heroes and Commander Ideas

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Kayiaxo
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Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Kayiaxo » 27 Aug 2007, 12:06

Hello,

As most here on the forums I think Commanders are underpowered.
I don't think they should be damage dealers but rather hit takers or add another ability.

I thought that maybe the commander could also include the sensor turret as well since it fits his job.
He has to find and appoint ennemies so the units assigned to him can target them.
And then remove the sensor unit as seperate unit.

If that fails I just suggest to give him some armor/hp boost and giving him more mobility but reducing the damage he deals.


As for heroes I think they are a little underpowered for what they are.
Heroes are hard to get and gamma campaign just rips your units appart.
I've never managed to get a hero long time since the ennemy aims at him and wont leave till he dies.
Heroes are HEROES, they are godlike fighters who manages miracles.
I suggest 2 things for heroes:
1. DEcrease their fire range but INcrease armor/hp/accuracy/speed more.
OR
2. Give them a special ability like: a 1-hit KO every for exemple 2000 damage dealt.
Giving them a % 1-hit KO on each hit would make him über with a machinegun, so I thought rather add up the damage and once he reaches the damage done, the next hit he destroys for sure the target.

Please give input.
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Watermelon
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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Watermelon » 27 Aug 2007, 12:52

In a more realistic implementation of commander/officer/squad leader,the members of a squad/group/division should not simply copy the order of the commander,rather it should prefer the target,destination commander assigned over its own target,destination,currently it simply overrides the individual units' behaviors,that's why the commander now is nothing more than a laser target designator/focus fire assigner.

The commander needs improved protection against all forms of damage,unit preservation always plays an important role in a tactical strategy game,ignoring it will make the game into a 'mass more tanks' pitfall,that's exactly one of the problems of wz's mp.
tasks postponed until the trunk is relatively stable again.

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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Kacen » 18 Sep 2007, 05:58

I think giving the commander a cannon like they did in 1.12 would be cool. Problem is in that it is only a cannon so by T3 it is outdated and the Elite Commander is used. I think at that point something like a rail gun commander is needed.

But yes, I think commanders need more than a laser designator.

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Serman
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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Serman » 19 Sep 2007, 02:41

Commanders still do damage with those emp beams.

Their damage should be increased a bit, to match the machine gun, though.

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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Kacen » 19 Sep 2007, 07:12

Yeah but I think the commanders should have an MBT-equivalent weapon, a new one to research depending on what tech level your at, although the one for T-1 can be the same for T-2, just a rail gun version for T-3 when cannons pretty much become completely obsolete.

Many a lot of the T-2 stuff became obsolete real fast...

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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Deathguise » 19 Sep 2007, 15:36

Serman wrote:Commanders still do damage with those emp beams.

Their damage should be increased a bit, to match the machine gun, though.
Yeah, the reason they do a miniscal amount of damage is because weapons are not allowed to do 0 damage, personally id rather see more durable commanders than heavily armed commanders - the reason being the first command turret has about 1000 body points the machinegun has 75, now if the command turret does as much damage as a machinegun you might as well build 10 commander units and use them as combat units altering T1 game balance.

The Elite Commander if im not mistaken had an EMP weapon and imo it was a good combination.
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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by NucNut » 19 Sep 2007, 16:04

Three Words: Nexus Link Commander...

Or just hack the multi turret units to include a laser designator turret and a weapon turret. Both paint the target, but obviously the laser designator would be more effective

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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by themousemaster » 19 Sep 2007, 22:50

Don't misunderstand, I'm not against giving Commanders a boost of some sort, but...

I disagree with giving them an actual weapon.  If the commander is targeted first, it doesn't matter what his gun is, only how long he can take a beating before succumbing.  If you want to improve the commander, then give it more survivability, and impart more bonuses to it's attached units.





Watermelon:

I understand what you are saying.  I think, however, that I have a completely different interpretation of what a "command" tank is.  I do not view them as a "squad leader".  As per their implementation, I view them as a targeting focal point for their attached units.

Perhaps the terminology of the unit should be changed?  I'm not the best in the world with synonyms, perhaps one can break out a thesaurus, but... calling it a "focus" or "targetting" unit, or somesuch, rather than a "commander".

Yes, as a "commander", said unit, in order to more closely mimic real life, should do the things you state.  But that's not what I want to see that unit functioning as.  I believe that that unit's function, as is, fits in nicely with how this game works, despite it's technical name.

Or, more specifically, if you have NOT given the commander a direct-target order, all his attached units fire at their own targets of greatest opportunity (I.E. will do the most damage).  But if the Comm IS giving a laser target, then he's telling his subordinates to "hit this", and despite relative weapon effectiveness, that's what they do.

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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Rman Virgil » 20 Sep 2007, 02:09

themousemaster wrote:
Don't misunderstand, I'm not against giving Commanders a boost of some sort, but...

I disagree with giving them an actual weapon.  If the commander is targeted first, it doesn't matter what his gun is, only how long he can take a beating before succumbing.  If you want to improve the commander, then give it more survivability, and impart more bonuses to it's attached units.
* Yup.... that's consistent with Pumpkin's intent as I understand it (back in the day we talked a bunch about it).

Watermelon:

I understand what you are saying.  I think, however, that I have a completely different interpretation of what a "command" tank is.  I do not view them as a "squad leader".  As per their implementation, I view them as a targeting focal point for their attached units.

Perhaps the terminology of the unit should be changed?  I'm not the best in the world with synonyms, perhaps one can break out a thesaurus, but... calling it a "focus" or "targetting" unit, or somesuch, rather than a "commander".

Yes, as a "commander", said unit, in order to more closely mimic real life, should do the things you state.  But that's not what I want to see that unit functioning as.  I believe that that unit's function, as is, fits in nicely with how this game works, despite it's technical name.

........
....
* K.... what your describing in military nomenclature is called a Spotter. Having a unit in WZ serving strictly in that capacity is totally kwel and consistent.

* However, I am of the same school as Watermelon as far as Commanders functionality.

* Pumpkin called them "Commanders" because they envisioned them as exactly that - a field officer (to the gamers GENERAL status) to promote or facilitate greater command & control GPMs in battle.

* Their implementation was as rudimentary as it is because WZ had to ship pronto by Eidos dictates (in a critically unfinished state) and because, before Pumpkin was shut down, Commanders were gonna have "more combat brains" within the WZ II Sequel. Alas that sequel was nipped in the bud.

-RV :)


* EDIT: ie. There are Cormmander upgrades in T-3 that are just a waste of $$ because Pumpkin never got around to implementing them so they do absolutely nothing.
Last edited by Rman Virgil on 20 Sep 2007, 14:35, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Watermelon » 21 Sep 2007, 11:06

themousemaster wrote: Don't misunderstand, I'm not against giving Commanders a boost of some sort, but...

I disagree with giving them an actual weapon.  If the commander is targeted first, it doesn't matter what his gun is, only how long he can take a beating before succumbing.  If you want to improve the commander, then give it more survivability, and impart more bonuses to it's attached units.





Watermelon:

I understand what you are saying.  I think, however, that I have a completely different interpretation of what a "command" tank is.  I do not view them as a "squad leader".  As per their implementation, I view them as a targeting focal point for their attached units.

Perhaps the terminology of the unit should be changed?  I'm not the best in the world with synonyms, perhaps one can break out a thesaurus, but... calling it a "focus" or "targetting" unit, or somesuch, rather than a "commander".

Yes, as a "commander", said unit, in order to more closely mimic real life, should do the things you state.  But that's not what I want to see that unit functioning as.  I believe that that unit's function, as is, fits in nicely with how this game works, despite it's technical name.

Or, more specifically, if you have NOT given the commander a direct-target order, all his attached units fire at their own targets of greatest opportunity (I.E. will do the most damage).  But if the Comm IS giving a laser target, then he's telling his subordinates to "hit this", and despite relative weapon effectiveness, that's what they do.
A commander or any 'super' unit need to have superiority or leadship,superiority makes unit either very deadly(kill foes in mere seconds or armed with WMD) or extremely durable(can take several punches before perish),while leadership grants nearby friendly units massive bonuses,though wz's commander has neither 'trait'.Also the uselessness of experience/rank makes commander/experienced units less desirable.

Players should be rewarded for keeping their units alive,but in warzone it's 'quantity over quality',mass more tanks will always make more sense than maintaining elite units.

I agree about the fragility of commander,any player will try to FF the enemy commander on the spot,so the commander needs more HP or maybe revivable,the advantages accumulated from destroying outnumbered enemies or keeping commander alive over time wont get lost as soon as your commander is killed.
tasks postponed until the trunk is relatively stable again.

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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Rman Virgil » 21 Sep 2007, 12:12

Watermelon wrote:
A commander or any 'super' unit need to have superiority or leadship,superiority makes unit either very deadly(kill foes in mere seconds or armed with WMD) or extremely durable(can take several punches before perish),while leadership grants nearby friendly units massive bonuses,though wz's commander has neither 'trait'.

Also the uselessness of experience/rank makes commander/experienced units less desirable.

Players should be rewarded for keeping their units alive,but in warzone it's 'quantity over quality',mass more tanks will always make more sense than maintaining elite units.

I agree about the fragility of commander,any player will try to FF the enemy commander on the spot,so the commander needs more HP or maybe revivable,the advantages accumulated from destroying outnumbered enemies or keeping commander alive over time wont get lost as soon as your commander is killed.

* The "uselessness of experience / rank" in WZ is what I call "unfullfilled promise" which is merely a reflection of the games original design intent (explictly stated by WZ Creators - Pumpkin Studios) to be a "living, continuously evolving, entity".

* Like Commanders, Borgs & a  whole host of other WZ components, "Experience & Rank Mechanisms" are positively RIPE for evolutionary development.

* I believe that central to WZs appeal over so many years after its initial launch into the gaming world is this seductive, rich, and very real promise.

* Some years ago (before source liberation) the community engaged ways of evolving Exp/Rank GPMs - close to a 100 REPLIES it's a bit of a read but,  IMHO, there are countless gems from hardcore vets of WZ MP which make it a relevant resource you can access HERE

* It's kinda Karmic I think.

Cheers, RV :)
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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Serman » 21 Sep 2007, 21:54

Deathguise wrote: Yeah, the reason they do a miniscal amount of damage is because weapons are not allowed to do 0 damage, personally id rather see more durable commanders than heavily armed commanders - the reason being the first command turret has about 1000 body points the machinegun has 75, now if the command turret does as much damage as a machinegun you might as well build 10 commander units and use them as combat units altering T1 game balance.

The Elite Commander if im not mistaken had an EMP weapon and imo it was a good combination.

Well, i'm talking about the starter weapon, light MG.

Because, at about the 4th Alpha mission, machine guns become obsolete anyway, and are replaced by either Twin MG's or Heavy MG's.

Though yes, I agree that it would create a whole lot of imbalance.

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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Kayiaxo » 29 Sep 2007, 21:39

How about make a commander stronger the more units he has under his command ?
For each unit under his command he gains 5% defense boost for exemple since the units would be defending him.
Also the higher the level of your units, the greater the defense of your commander.
That would also mean you would have to be carefull with your units because the more of them die, the more vulnerable the commander gets.
It fits the idea as well to avoid people mass-producing units to send them die in battle.
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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Kacen » 30 Sep 2007, 19:13

Kayiaxo wrote: How about make a commander stronger the more units he has under his command ?
For each unit under his command he gains 5% defense boost for exemple since the units would be defending him.
Also the higher the level of your units, the greater the defense of your commander.
That would also mean you would have to be carefull with your units because the more of them die, the more vulnerable the commander gets.
It fits the idea as well to avoid people mass-producing units to send them die in battle.
Add umm how umm would having more units under your command increase your armor? O_o;

I think we should steer clear of CNShit-style systems in this. =P

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Re: Heroes and Commander Ideas

Post by Rman Virgil » 30 Sep 2007, 22:15

* I have 2 basic mantras that I try to instill in the teams & team leaders I train for my company.

* Both are applicable to WZ Commanders, IMO, but I'll just mention one.

* "Work smarter not harder."

* That's it.

- RV :)
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