Firing through things

[icyflames]

I think stuff (especially towers) should be able to fire over research facilities because they are so flat.

[Powzone]

I already opened a ticket a few weeks ago, because of tanks not hitting enemy buildings or tanks. It can be found here:
http://developer.wz2100.net/ticket/2386
I attached some savegames also.

Even if it is not about turrets shooting through other buildings, it should be mentioned, as the units act the same way.

[NoQ]

Just wanted to bump this thread, because on the latest master_20110209 we can't fire through friendly buildings anymore (again?). Will there ever be any official reply on how it is *supposed* to be, that is, what do "true" warzone2100 rules say about this matter? (:

Or did i miss something?

[Spik3d]

I don't know, but I've had a lot of sketchy and very annoying projectile blockages.

Like a lancer tower being one unit away from a cliff edge and being able to take out my units, but when my units try to return fire, they fire at the center of the tower, but that's on the other side of the cliff edge from their position, so they just hit the cliff. Then it also seems like sometimes my heavy cannon units can't fire past friendlies, but lancers can. Also, a lot of firing at enemy defensive positions which are either over a small hill, around a cliff corner, or ontop of a cliff like above.

Basically a lot of wasted ammo and time reloading firing at the terrain, also causes a lot of lost units. It makes me rage on beta 1 in the campaign with that big hump in the incline and my units are firing at the ground and getting destroyed by mortars, but if I move up, they're reloading and the enemy's lancers and cannons destroy them.

While these are all understandable obstacles, my units shouldn't be firing if their projectile will just hit the terrain.

This is with 2.3.7. The current master build is choppy and I am not a fan of the textures, the default textures are iconic to Warzone (at least for me) and the new textures are just too different.

[Saberuneko]

What sense does it have being able of firing through friendly structures?
It makes the game lose realism.

Structure your base better. And forget about "magical" firing.

[Per]

Will there ever be any official reply on how it is *supposed* to be, that is, what do "true" warzone2100 rules say about this matter? (:

We are still trying to figure out a good way about this. The original Warzone was designed around true lines of sight, which is a lot of hard realism and physics for a mere game. Starcraft2 for example threw all such realism completely out the window. The latest master should make droids try to get into better position before attempting to fire, to avoid the shooting into the ground issue. However, as seen in SupCom1, turrets cannot do that and will end up either not shooting for very hard to understand reasons (Warzone master), or shoot into the ground (SupCom1), or shoot through the ground (as was done in early versions of Warzone).

It is in cases like this that I think we just have to throw in the towel on realism.

[NoQ]

[holywar]

It makes the game lose realism.

• And when trucks build vehicle factories out of the blue in half a minute, using pure electricity as a material, transfered wirelessly from power generators located on the other side of the map, produced from oil that was transfered wirelessly from oil derricks located on the other side of the map, nobody cares (:

(That's Zarel's favorite argument, as far as i remember)
[/holywar]

Well, not shooting through terrain is some sort of realism that increases the tactical richness of the game (i've already noticed it, and it's good!), and not shooting through friendly buildings is a different sort of realism that greatly decreases this richness.

This is not about careful planning, but this is a matter of life and death at the very early game when you didn't have any time at all even to invent concrete. In fact, only when such specific firing through things is enabled, designing the defense at this phase starts to make sense.

Still, the issues noticed by Spik3d are curious and might require a separate discussion (and i think he's right about this lancer tower thing)

[Cyp]

[holywar]

It makes the game lose realism.

• And when trucks build vehicle factories out of the blue in half a minute, using pure electricity as a material, transfered wirelessly from power generators on the other side of the map, produced from oil that was transfered wirelessly from oil derricks located on the other side of the map, nobody cares (:

(That's Zarel's favorite argument, as far as i remember)
[/holywar]

...

Building factories out of the blue using pure electricity should be possible (at least, as long as either the factories are allowed to be made of 50% antimatter or that baryogenesis is possible). Transferring electricity wirelessly is possible. Transferring oil wirelessly is should be possible, the simplest way would be by shooting oil barrels out of a cannon. The oil would have to be comparable in mass to the factories being built, though. Or much much greater in mass, if only using the chemical energy of the oil, instead of using fusion. When you can build factories out of the blue using pure electricity, you probably wouldn't bother with primitive stuff like machine guns and archangel missiles, though.

[NoQ]

[offtopic]

When you can build factories out of the blue using pure electricity, you probably wouldn't bother with primitive stuff like machine guns and archangel missiles, though.

• And, considering the fact that machineguns have unlimited ammo, ...

[/offtopic]

[effigy]

lol?

Being able to shoot through friendly structures again would be nice. Maybe it's ok if droids can't shoot over things like walls, hardpoints or forts, but can shoot over bunkers and through towers?

As for trouble shooting stuff on a cliff, maybe droids should target the top of another droid or defense to get a better line of sight?

[NoQ]

As for trouble shooting stuff on a cliff, maybe droids should target the top of another droid or defense to get a better line of sight?

Agreed (:
P.S. The "top of another droid" may be out of range even when the middle isn't, right?

[effigy]

Yeah, but I wasn't worried about range when I suggested that, just line of sight =3

[Deus Siddis]

I'd say you should not be able to shoot through solid objects, friendly or otherwise.

WZ might choose abstraction over realism when it comes to your economy (fuel, ammo, etc.) because this is boring stuff. But it certainly favors realism in combat because this delivers much tactical richness and common sense / intuitiveness to the game play.

The player having to deploy his infrastructure and forces in a practical defensive formation is actually very cool. Shooting magic bullets through solid objects to hit enemies is tactically lame; leave that kind of thing to blizzard-activision.

[Saberuneko]

Yeah, I agree...

When I play a rts game, and see the tanks and armies shoot through terrain or buildings I say two things. (Yes! Magic!), and (Damn! I cannot use the terrain in my advantage).

When I find out that my enemy is shooting through their walls, but I cannot shoot him through them, I just say (HAAAX!), and throw a monitor to the enemy's head.

[Cyp]

As for trouble shooting stuff on a cliff, maybe droids should target the top of another droid or defense to get a better line of sight?

Agreed (:
P.S. The "top of another droid" may be out of range even when the middle isn't, right?

Actually, no. A droid could easily shoot Alpha Centauri C, if it happened to be directly above the droid.

If using 3D range checks instead of 2D, then VTOL bombers tend to fly over the target for a long time, without dropping bombs.