The HPV cannon.

[Wisler456]

When beta 11 came out this weapon (HPV cannon) suddenly got a powerup and now everyone spams it, im just wondering will it stay at the power/stage you get it in the game it is, or will you guys change back. Im sure evryone has noticed its almost all people use now, as seems the best for killing structures, borgs and units, and even has a crack at the vtols lol. It remind me of years back when it was always a race to heavy cannon :-S

But you guys did good on the ripple/arch situation way more action in game now.

[Berg]

Heavy cannon are still a good weapon but HVC outrange them ...looks like HVC has the same killing power also.

[Wisler456]

to me, heavy cannon seems weak than hpv against structures, borgs and mabye on even ground with tanks, but it doesnt even shoot vtol and is way slower

[Olrox]

There are people who started complaining about rockets too powerful vs. cannons too weak. The HPV was modified to make cannons more likely to be used, I think.

I, personally, always thought that HPV was a very well-balanced weapon, and went researching it in probably about 95% of my games. Right now I was testing rockets to see if what they were talking about it was truth, but couldn't really draw a good conclusion on that - each kind of weapons has its pros/cons.

Find it's cons and use them to overcome your enemies, if everyone is really using it, would be best for you! I don't think they are overpowered.

~Olrox

[Wisler456]

me and 3 other players tested rockets vs hpv on the day beta 11 came out, was 20 vs 20 all with same alloys and upgrades in sync with what they would be in normal game, the only time rockets beat hpv was with scourge hover vs hpv hover, as the scourges retreated. I dont see how its balanced if a T1 all rounder wep can beat 90% of the time anti-tank weps, with both units beaing tanks, doesnt make sense xD

[Olrox]

me and 3 other players tested rockets vs hpv on the day beta 11 came out, was 20 vs 20 all with same alloys and upgrades in sync with what they would be in normal game, the only time rockets beat hpv was with scourge hover vs hpv hover, as the scourges retreated. I dont see how its balanced if a T1 all rounder wep can beat 90% of the time anti-tank weps, with both units beaing tanks, doesnt make sense xD

Wait - was that a direct confrontation?
Cuz, you know, rockets aren't for direct confrontations (i.e. both units stand still and shoot each other to death). That's mostly why they have long range and are lightweight, but have low HP...

And HPV is not T1. It is mid-T2, you get it after being stuck with Heavy cannon since later T1. I myself don't think your info is reliable, sorry.

~Olrox

[Zarel]

Hmm. I think I'll bump up weight. That should theoretically fix it.

[3drts]

Utilize rocket salvo fire: fire two rockets/ missiles, retreat and reload, repeat.

Lancers fire a salvo 3.7 times per minute, ie once every 16.2 seconds with no upgrades, 8.89 with upgrades (ignoring the time between the rockets firing within the salvo).

HPV Canons fire every 5 seconds with no upgrades, and every 2 seconds with.....

If you retreat between salvos, you get in two strikes for every 1 from the HPV (this is much harder when the HPV fires every 2 seconds, but doable with 5.)

note that the base stats, you would avoid the HPV firing 2 times before you would be ready to return fire again (T=0 HPV fires, lancer fires : T=5 HPV fires again :T= 10 HPV fires again : T = 15 HPV fires again: T= 16.2 Lancer fires again)
Even if it gets a second shot off, by retreating, you're reducing the effective firepower of the HPV against your lancers to 2/3rds.

With full upgrades:
T=0 Lancer, HPV fire: T=2 HPV fires : T=4 HPV fires: T=6 HPV fires: T=8 HPV fires: T≈9 Lancer Fires.

Thats at least 3 HPV shots with no lancer reply, before the lancer is ready to fire back (accepting T8 and T 8.89 as close enough)

At this point, you can reduce the effective relative firepower of the HPV against the lancer by about 2x, if you quickly retreat out of range.
I think maybe lancer Damage should be bumped up back to where it was, and its ROF nerfed by the same proportion the damage was, to further emphasize the difference.

Making HPVs heavier so it is easier for lancers to withdraw and reload, is probably a good thing.

Now HPVs have a range greater than lancers... I'm not sure its such a good idea to have a longer ranged weapon available so early.

And HPV is not T1. It is mid-T2, you get it after being stuck with Heavy cannon since later T1. I myself don't think your info is reliable, sorry.

Have you played beta 11?
You get it before Heavy cannon now, unlike in campaign.

Maybe reduce the range to the same as lancer, and increase heavy cannon range to 1280 (as I noted in other threads, modern 120mm main tank cannons are hyper velocity by the standards used to call the earlier german 88mm cannon hyper velocity, and these are the calibers the game lists for the cannons)
Then heavy cannon will be useful as well (if right now everyone uses HPV), but don't give the heavy the ability to hit air.

I'm not too sure about letting the HPV hit air.

It seems everything kills air now.

Borgs with rockets/missiles used to be relatively ineffective, now it takes a mass vtol bombing raid to be effective against borgs. A few vtols against an HPV tank group are doomed, as they are against pulse.

It works for high oil maps where massed bomber formations work, but I think it makes vtol too limited on low oil maps where you will only have a handful of vtols, which used to be a relatively hard counter again an enemy tank group - the tanks were doomed to eventual destruction unless they retreated to a place with AA, or had dedicated AA units, or if they destroyed the vtols while rearming- meaning they would have to attack a (hopefully) fortified position, and not some out of the way oil derrick.

Maybe we can nerf "all rounder" damage to vtols?

[Olrox]

Have you played beta 11?
You get it before Heavy cannon now, unlike in campaign.

Hmm, I didn't play beta 11, just beta 10.

I agree it should be made heavier, then - making it more early, especially given its recent "hit everything" boost, should bring some drawbacks as well.

[Wisler456]

me and 3 other players tested rockets vs hpv on the day beta 11 came out, was 20 vs 20 all with same alloys and upgrades in sync with what they would be in normal game, the only time rockets beat hpv was with scourge hover vs hpv hover, as the scourges retreated. I dont see how its balanced if a T1 all rounder wep can beat 90% of the time anti-tank weps, with both units beaing tanks, doesnt make sense xD

Wait - was that a direct confrontation?
Cuz, you know, rockets aren't for direct confrontations (i.e. both units stand still and shoot each other to death). That's mostly why they have long range and are lightweight, but have low HP...

And HPV is not T1. It is mid-T2, you get it after being stuck with Heavy cannon since later T1. I myself don't think your info is reliable, sorry.

~Olrox

no in the tests we used all tactics we normally use, e.g hit and run with rockets, retreat and full on attack with cannons , as i said ...so yeah its pretty reliable, plus you say you dont even play beta 11 so how can you argue about something you havnt even tried? lol

[Zarel]

All-rounders do 40% to air... I thought that was low enough...

I'll bump up HC range slightly, but only to like 8.5 or 9.

[3drts]

Hmm, only 40%, I haven't done much testing of VTOL HPvs against tracked HPVs....

I'll note that tracks have 2x the hp of vtol... so reducing damage to vtols to 50% makes them pretty even.... but VTOL HPV does more damage, than vehicle HPV, but by how much?

Given all the effort put into VTOLs over tracks, and the fact they have half the hitpoints of Tracked units, I'm not sure a 10% additional bonus (ie 40% rather than 50% needed to even out the 2x tracked HP) is enough, especially since in low power games, tanks should outnumber VTOLs (at least until the endgame, when the winner is clear).

I need to do more testing before recommending a modifier lower than 40%

[Olrox]

plus you say you dont even play beta 11 so how can you argue about something you havnt even tried? lol

Unless HPV had a boost in stats between beta 10 and beta 11, I can argue about that - I didn't know about the reducement in requirements, that was the correction.
lol yourself.

~Olrox

[Berg]

I don't know if this has been asked.
when you have a concrete wall it seems hvc go straight through them and kill the trucks behind it?
If this is the case I think that part is wrong.

[Zarel]

Hmm, only 40%, I haven't done much testing of VTOL HPvs against tracked HPVs....

I'll note that tracks have 2x the hp of vtol... so reducing damage to vtols to 50% makes them pretty even.... but VTOL HPV does more damage, than vehicle HPV, but by how much?

Given all the effort put into VTOLs over tracks, and the fact they have half the hitpoints of Tracked units, I'm not sure a 10% additional bonus (ie 40% rather than 50% needed to even out the 2x tracked HP) is enough, especially since in low power games, tanks should outnumber VTOLs (at least until the endgame, when the winner is clear).

I need to do more testing before recommending a modifier lower than 40%

Well, VTOL HPV have a 105% damage modifier to tracks... You might also want to consider the fact that as a standard VTOL weapon, it does double damage compared to its ground version... It's also far more suited to hit-and-run...