Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Discuss the future of Warzone 2100 with us.

What's a good new name for the mini-rocket artillery turret?

Mini-Rocket Artillery (don't change it)
9
23%
Mini-Rocket Array
14
35%
Mini-Rocket Battery
14
35%
other (specify below)
3
8%
 
Total votes: 40

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by javierkaiser » 04 Jan 2010, 11:24

Voted for battery.
Array is also a good option too :rolleyes:

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by KenAlcock » 07 Jan 2010, 06:24

I know this is an old thread, but some of the ideas kicked around here are less than well-informed.
Zarel wrote:Batteries have traditionally referred to stationary emplacements. That's why the Mini-Rocket Artillery emplacement is called a Mini-Rocket Battery.
This statement is less than correct. The armament of naval vessels has also traditionally referred to using the term battery. And a collection of self-propelled howitzers is also referred to as a battery, going at least as far back as the Vietnam war.
Self Propelled Howitzer (SPH), globalsecurity.org wrote: The common field artillery weapon in Vietnam was the 105-mm, howitzer used in World War II and Korea; however, several carriages were used -- a low profile lightweight carriage for airborne units, the standard carriage used during World War II and Korea for infantry divisions, and the improved self-propelled carriage for mechanized units. Three batteries of self-propelled 155-mm howitzers and one battery of self-propelled 8-inch howitzers were assigned at division level and additional 155-mm and 8-inch howitzers and self-propelled 175-mm guns at corps level.
Source: Self Propelled Howitzer (SPH)


I believe that all Warzone weapons, turrets, and relative tactical discussion should use the following terms in accordance to their modern military meanings. After all, Warzone 2100 is futuristic game, not a historical one. I also believe this will make things more intuitive, less confusing, and as militarily accurate as possible. While there are some historical connotation and denotation gray areas and some bleed over between definitions of some of these terms, what I've compiled below are the most commonly used connotations and denotations in modern military parlance.

Battery
No individually purchased and constructed weapon structure or unit in Warzone 2100 should ever be named with the word battery. While it may be possible (though all definitions suggest otherwise) that a battery might contain only one weapon structure or unit, the most commonly used diction for the word battery implies a group of weapon structures or units working together (or a group of anything else which could be perceived to collectively assault or lay siege to a targeted location or an individual).
Dictionary.com wrote: bat⋅ter⋅y  /ˈbætəri/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [bat-uh-ree]
–noun, plural -ter⋅ies.
  1. Electricity.
    1. a. Also called galvanic battery, voltaic battery. a combination of two or more cells electrically connected to work together to produce electric energy.
      b. cell (def. 7a).
  2. any large group or series of related things: a battery of questions.
  3. Military.
    1. two or more pieces of artillery used for combined action.
    2. a tactical unit of artillery, usually consisting of six guns together with the artillerymen, equipment, etc., required to operate them.
    3. a parapet or fortification equipped with artillery.
      [KenAlcock: Look at the related Wikipedia photo, and you'll see that such batteries usually have several artillery pieces]
  4. a group or series of similar articles, machines, parts, etc.
  5. Baseball. the pitcher and catcher considered as a unit.
    [KenAlcock: In other words two players, not one.]
  6. Navy. a. (on a warship) a group of guns having the same caliber or used for the same purpose.
  7. the whole armament of a warship.
  8. Psychology. a series of tests yielding a single total score, used for measuring aptitude, intelligence, personality, etc.
    [KenAlcock: For example, all enlistees in any United States military service branch, are required to take the Armed Service Vocational Aptitude Battery (ASVAB).]
  9. the act of beating or battering.
    [KenAlcock: In other words, the act of delivering several blows as a collective assault.]
  10. Law. an unlawful attack upon another person by beating or wounding, or by touching in an offensive manner.
    [KenAlcock: In other words, the unlawful act of delivering several blows as a collective assault.]
  11. an instrument used in battering.
    [KenAlcock: This is the only singular definition of battery.]
  12. Also, batterie. Music. the instruments comprising the percussion section of an orchestra.
  13. any imposing group of persons or things acting or directed in unison: a battery of experts.
Department of Defense, NATO Terms as documented by militarywords.com wrote: Battery Definition: (DOD, NATO)
  1. Tactical and administrative artillery unit or subunit corresponding to a company or similar unit in other branches of the Army.
  2. All guns, torpedo tubes, searchlights, or missile launchers of the same size or caliber or used for the same purpose, either installed in one ship or otherwise operating as an entity.
Source Link

NOTE: The clause "installed in one ship or otherwise operating as an entity" may lead one to believe that a weapon with multiple tubes could be named a battery; but this is not the case. For example, while each gun turret on the U.S.S. Missouri has three 16-inch guns, none of these turrets are correctly referred to as a battery. Here is an excerpt from the Interesting USS Missouri Facts web page:
Interesting USS Missouri Facts page, http://www.ussmissouri.org wrote:Her armament included the main battery of nine 16 inch guns and twenty 5 inch anti-aircraft guns. There were 5 mounts on each side with two guns in each. (When she was modernized in the 1980's four of the mounts were removed and were replaced by Tomahawk missile launchers, so there are only 12 of them now.)
So here we see that is the collective of all turrets on the ship referred to as its battery, not one of its weapon turrets.

See Also: Wikipedia Artillery Battery

Even though some Warzone weapon structures and turrets have multiple weapon tubes (Machine Gun barrels, Cannon barrels, Howitzer barrels, Rocket launcher tubes, Missile Launcher tubes, et cetera), these are not correctly classifed as a battery. Why not? Because the multiple tubes are parts of a single weapon structure or turret. That is to say, one could not separate one weapon tube could from the others, without disassembling the weapon and rendering it inoperable. For an unrelated example, think of a double barrel shotgun or a 6-barrel Gatling Gun. Removing one barrel from either weapon constitutes disassembling the weapon and rendering it inoperable. By contrast, one weapon structure can be removed from a battery, and the battery is still operable, but at less military effectiveness.

Note that the term battery is not exclusive to artillery units, it is also used to describe groupings of anti-aircraft defenses at least as far back as World War II. This is because air defenses originally started out as anti-aircraft artillery or AAA. In fact some early anti-aircraft guns were also effective anti-tank guns!

See: Wikipedia Anti-aircraft Warfare

Array
While the usage of the word array is quite expansive. And while I did find several military hardware examples using the word array in their description, I could not find one historical example on the Internet of any real world, military hardware, from any country, with the word array in either the weapon designation or weapon classification. So while the word array is used in military dialog, it is not actually used to either name or classify a weapon. Here is a fairly long List of U.S. Army Rocket Launchers By Model Number.

The military mainly uses the word array when discussing Radar and Antennas. In fact, I used to guard a Navy antenna array, when I was in the Marines. It was quite the huge structure (several acres).

Launcher
This word launcher is commonly used in weapons classification. For example, the militaries of several countries have had some form of a Multiple Rocket Launcher (MRL). The word launcher is also used for missile systems. For example, the U.S. Retired its Mk 13 missile launcher from all active naval vessels in 2004.

Pod
This word pod is commonly used in weapons classification. For example the modern militaries of several countries have some form of rocket pod. For an example, see Mk 4/Mk 40 Folding-Fin Aerial Rocket from the U.S Arsenal. That wikipedia article shows several photos of rocket pods.

Emplacement
This is the most correct term for any stationary weapon structure that is not part of a: bunker, fortress, hard point, or other such distinguished fortification.
Department of Defense, NATO Terms as documented by militarywords.com wrote: Emplacement Definition: (DOD, NATO)
  1. A prepared position for one or more weapons or pieces of equipment, for protection against hostile fire or bombardment, and from which they can execute their tasks.
  2. The act of fixing a gun in a prepared position from which it may be fired.
Source Link

Site
The term site is used many ways in military parlance. However with regard to weapons systems, the term site is almost specifically used for ground-based anti-aircraft and guided missile weapon systems. Increasingly, it seems that the term may not always imply a stationary weapon system. A ballistic missile site is certainly stationary, but a SAM site need not always be stationary. (Or more accurately, the site is stationary but the SAM launcher parked on the site is more likely to be a mobile missile launcher.) This is because modern weapons and battle tactics dictate that such defenses be mobile in order to evade attack.

In fact, I don't remember ever seeing any static anti-aircraft defenses on any military base I've ever been to. The modern military relies more on jet fighter interceptors for air defense at military bases, and mobile SAM launchers.

See: Surface-to-Air Missile Site

So with all the above information several stationary weapon structures should be renamed:

Mini-Rocket Battery should be renamed: Mini-Rocket Launcher
Ripple Rocket Battery should be renamed: Ripple Rocket Launcher
Seraph Missile Battery should be renamed: Seraph Missile Launcher
Archangel Missile Emplacement should be renamed: Archangel Missile Launcher

and so on..
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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Zarel » 07 Jan 2010, 08:40

kenalcock wrote:I know this is an old thread, but some of the ideas kicked around here are less than well-informed.
With Rman and TVR gone, we really do need someone who knows about military naming.
kenalcock wrote:So with all the above information several stationary weapon structures should be renamed:

Mini-Rocket Battery should be renamed: Mini-Rocket Launcher
Ripple Rocket Battery should be renamed: Ripple Rocket Launcher
Seraph Missile Battery should be renamed: Seraph Missile Launcher
Archangel Missile Emplacement should be renamed: Archangel Missile Launcher

and so on..
The problem is, Mini-Pod, Lancer, and TK are rocket launchers. Mini-Rocket Artillery and Ripple Rockets are specifically MRLs. So it's inaccurate to call them "mini-rocket launcher" and "ripple rocket launcher".

Try again.

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Corporal Punishment » 07 Jan 2010, 17:49

I opt for the stationary weapon systems to be named emplacement/tower all together. While it is not exactly correct military classification, it will do fine for the majority of players since those with extensive military experience like kenalclock and my humble self are a neglectible number.

As far as the Mini-rocket Array is concerned, we should get rid of the "Mini-rocket" first. It implies that this weapon is somewhat similar to Mini-rocket Pod. In fact, the two could not be less similar. On the other hand, this is the part in the name that states that these weapons share upgrades. Not an easy task at hand... Maybe like this: rename "Mini-rocket Pod" to "Anti-tank Mini-rocket" and "Mini-rocket Array" to "Ballistic Mini-rocket".
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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Per » 07 Jan 2010, 22:07

Corporal Punishment wrote:As far as the Mini-rocket Array is concerned, we should get rid of the "Mini-rocket" first. It implies that this weapon is somewhat similar to Mini-rocket Pod. In fact, the two could not be less similar. On the other hand, this is the part in the name that states that these weapons share upgrades. Not an easy task at hand... Maybe like this: rename "Mini-rocket Pod" to "Anti-tank Mini-rocket" and "Mini-rocket Array" to "Ballistic Mini-rocket".
Sounds really good to me.

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by KukY » 07 Jan 2010, 23:18

Per wrote:
Corporal Punishment wrote:As far as the Mini-rocket Array is concerned, we should get rid of the "Mini-rocket" first. It implies that this weapon is somewhat similar to Mini-rocket Pod. In fact, the two could not be less similar. On the other hand, this is the part in the name that states that these weapons share upgrades. Not an easy task at hand... Maybe like this: rename "Mini-rocket Pod" to "Anti-tank Mini-rocket" and "Mini-rocket Array" to "Ballistic Mini-rocket".
Sounds really good to me.
And to me.
MR and BMR.

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Fire Truck » 08 Jan 2010, 01:16

Reduced range artillery rocket RAR , and call the ripple Long range artillery rocket LAR :)

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Zarel » 08 Jan 2010, 02:16

Corporal Punishment wrote:As far as the Mini-rocket Array is concerned, we should get rid of the "Mini-rocket" first. It implies that this weapon is somewhat similar to Mini-rocket Pod. In fact, the two could not be less similar. On the other hand, this is the part in the name that states that these weapons share upgrades. Not an easy task at hand... Maybe like this: rename "Mini-rocket Pod" to "Anti-tank Mini-rocket" and "Mini-rocket Array" to "Ballistic Mini-rocket".
That doesn't convey the fact that one's a rocket launcher and one's an MRL, which "Mini-Rocket Array" does.

Furthermore, "ballistic mini-rocket" is a bit of an oxymoron (and also false, since MRLs aren't ballistic).

Try again?

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Corporal Punishment » 08 Jan 2010, 04:02

Well then, just go with current NATO nomenclature and call the Mini-rocket Array LARS (Light artillery rocket system) and Ripple rockets MARS (Medium artillery rocket system). Or simply rename Mini-rocket Array to Stalinorgel. Of course, they are not the long-range sub-orbital missiles that are commonly referred to today as ballistic missiles. But hey, they follow a ballistic flight path and a certain person has made very clear that WZ is not a DARPA project in the past. And the A-4 (better known as V2) is considered a ballistic missile although it does not reach orbit.
By the way: I always assumed the Mini-rocket Pod was something like the Matra Type 116M below, the look and ROF implied some sort of multiple launcher. Thus, it would not be necessary to explicitly state this in the name of either Mini-rocket Pod or Mini-rocket array.

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Zarel » 08 Jan 2010, 04:15

Well, the basic idea is that it needs to be clear to casual players that the MRL is a salvo weapon and the pod isn't.

I suppose the current names are the best way of doing so.

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by KenAlcock » 08 Jan 2010, 12:33

Zarel wrote:
kenalcock wrote:I know this is an old thread, but some of the ideas kicked around here are less than well-informed.
With Rman and TVR gone, we really do need someone who knows about military naming.
kenalcock wrote:So with all the above information several stationary weapon structures should be renamed:

Mini-Rocket Battery should be renamed: Mini-Rocket Launcher
Ripple Rocket Battery should be renamed: Ripple Rocket Launcher
Seraph Missile Battery should be renamed: Seraph Missile Launcher
Archangel Missile Emplacement should be renamed: Archangel Missile Launcher

and so on..
The problem is, Mini-Pod, Lancer, and TK are rocket launchers. Mini-Rocket Artillery and Ripple Rockets are specifically MRLs. So it's inaccurate to call them "mini-rocket launcher" and "ripple rocket launcher".

Try again.
Why is it inaccurate? Something with the word launcher in the name (without the word multiple) does not in any way convey how many (or how few) things are actually launched at one time. It only conveys that the weapon system uses a projectile powered by rocket propulsion.
Zarel wrote:Well, the basic idea is that it needs to be clear to casual players that the MRL is a salvo weapon and the pod isn't.
I believe this is the real problem; you are overly concerned with trying to convey--in the weapon system name itself--whether or not that weapon system has a single projectile firing capability or a multiple projectile firing capability. Most modern weapons systems are simply not named like this. In fact, not all Warzone weapons are named like this, You have weapon systems like the Lancer, Tank Killer, and Scourge. These are all really good names--they sound much better than "Mini-Rocket blah blah". It gives them personality. Let the description of the weapon system in the Tree Guide and in the Intelligence Report screen describe the intricacies of each weapon system. And in the case of the Lancer, Tank Killer, and Scourge, all three weapon systems are capable of firing two projectiles, yet their names do not convey this.

I would argue that given the weapons systems actual names like these is simply more fun. But I do understand that you want to communicate the type of capability they have so I'll cook up something.
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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Terminator » 08 Jan 2010, 12:42

Personaly I don't read weapon names anymore. I just look at pics(3D models). I only read upgrades...like Composit alloys,...and so on.
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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Zarel » 08 Jan 2010, 13:24

kenalcock wrote:Why is it inaccurate? Something with the word launcher in the name (without the word multiple) does not in any way convey how many (or how few) things are actually launched at one time. It only conveys that the weapon system uses a projectile powered by rocket propulsion.
Yes, but it should (see below).
kenalcock wrote:I believe this is the real problem; you are overly concerned with trying to convey--in the weapon system name itself--whether or not that weapon system has a single projectile firing capability or a multiple projectile firing capability. Most modern weapons systems are simply not named like this. In fact, not all Warzone weapons are named like this, You have weapon systems like the Lancer, Tank Killer, and Scourge. These are all really good names--they sound much better than "Mini-Rocket blah blah". It gives them personality. Let the description of the weapon system in the Tree Guide and in the Intelligence Report screen describe the intricacies of each weapon system. And in the case of the Lancer, Tank Killer, and Scourge, all three weapon systems are capable of firing two projectiles, yet their names do not convey this.
It's fine that the single rocket launchers, like Mini-Rocket, Lancer, Tank Killer, don't explicitly specify that they're not salvo weapons. But stuff like the MRL really do need to.

And the current name - "Mini-Rocket Array" does convey that. So I don't really want to lose that.

Warzone has relatively few "creatively-named" weapons, compared to other games; especially in T1. I rather like it that way; it gives it a sense of realism, and it gives players a good idea of what weapons do. The only weapon in T1-T2 that doesn't convey much about what it does is Lancer, and it still does if you look at its full name "Lancer AT Rocket".
kenalcock wrote:I would argue that given the weapons systems actual names like these is simply more fun. But I do understand that you want to communicate the type of capability they have so I'll cook up something.
The main thing is, most players don't look at the name much. People who care about the name are probably the same people who look upon it for information...

I appreciate your willingness to work with me on this issue.

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by KenAlcock » 08 Jan 2010, 13:53

Weapon System Category Abbreviations and Their Descriptions
AP = Anti-Personnel
AT = Anti-Tank
AS = Anti-Structure
ART = Artillery
F = Flamer
ALL = All-Rounder

NOTE: Better to use ART and ALL so each does not get confused as the other.

Rocket And Missile Weapon System Category Abbreviations and Their Descriptions

IRL = Individual Rocket Launcher
Such weapon systems launch one (sometimes two) direct-fire, rocket-propelled projectiles before reloading is required. The projectiles are unguided and therefore somewhat inaccurate.

MRL = Multiple Rocket Launcher
Such weapon systems launch multiple indirect-fire, rocket-propelled projectiles before reloading is required. While each individual unguided rocket propelled projectile is inaccurate, their dispersion within the group makes the salvo collectively effective as it blankets the target area.

AMRL = Advanced Multiple Rocket Launcher
Such weapon systems launch multiple indirect-fire, rocket-propelled projectiles before reloading is required. While each individual unguided rocket propelled projectile is inaccurate, their dispersion within the group makes the salvo collectively effective as it blankets the target area. The rocket propelled projectiles of such weapon systems have a much greater range than howitzers and are particularly effective in counter battery roles.

ML = Missle Launcher
Such weapon systems launch one (sometimes two) direct-fire, rocket propelled projectiles that are guided and therefore more accurate than unguided rockets.

MML = Multiple Missle Launcher
Such weapon systems launch multiple indirect-fire, rocket propelled, guided missile projectiles that are much more accurate than unguided rockets. The rocket propelled projectiles of such weapon systems have a much greater range than howitzers and are particularly effective in counter battery roles.

Code: Select all

Current Name      Trajectory Guidance  Target  Type  Class New Base Tech Name    New Structure/Turret Names
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mini-Rocket Pod   direct     Unguided  AT      RL    L     Sting Mini-Rocket     Sting RL Tower/Turret
Mini-Rocket Array indirect   Unguided  AL      MRL   L     Swarm Mini-Rocket     Swarm MRL Emplacement/Turret
Lancer            direct     Unguided  AT      RL    M     Lancer Rocket         Lancer RL Tower/Hardpoint/Emplacement/Turret
Bunker Buster     direct     Unguided  AS      RL    H     Bunker Buster Rocket  Bunker Buster RL Turret
Tank Killer       direct     Unguided  AT      RL    H     Tank Killer Rocket    Tank Killer RL Hardpoint/Emplacement/Turret
Ripple Rockets    indirect   Unguided  ART     AMRL  M     Ripple Rocket         Ripple MRL Emplacement/Turret
Scourge Missile   direct     Guided    AT      ML    H     Scourge Missile       Scourge ML Tower/Hardpoint/Turret
Seraph Missile    direct     Guided    ART     MML   M     Seraph Missile        Seraph MML Emplacement/Turret
Archangel Missile direct     Guided    ART     MML   H     Archangel Missile     Archangel MML Emplacement/Turret
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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by KenAlcock » 08 Jan 2010, 13:55

That code box above is a table, most likely best viewed in a text editor.

The above definitions should be added to the guide.
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