Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Discuss the future of Warzone 2100 with us.

What's a good new name for the mini-rocket artillery turret?

Mini-Rocket Artillery (don't change it)
9
23%
Mini-Rocket Array
14
35%
Mini-Rocket Battery
14
35%
other (specify below)
3
8%
 
Total votes: 40

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Crushy
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Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Crushy » 03 Aug 2009, 03:03

Balance issues aside, isn't it odd that something with artillery in it's name has even less range than an assault gun? Maybe we should just call them mini-rockets to avoid confusion.


Ok, I admit it, I actually confused them with riptides once. :gonk:

(Zarel: Poll added)
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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Zarel » 03 Aug 2009, 09:33

Well, it's "artillery" in the sense that it's an indirect salvo weapon, not that it's long range. ;)

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Crushy » 03 Aug 2009, 20:45

So are mini-rocket pods and yet you don't call them artillery. :p It's also incoherent in the sense that most "artillery" isn't called *name* artillery
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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Zarel » 03 Aug 2009, 20:49

No, mini-rocket pods are direct non-salvo weapons.

The salvo-ness is what they're referring to as "artillery", in this case.

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Crushy » 03 Aug 2009, 21:25

Shouldn't it be called a battery then?

battery: group of guns or missile launchers operated together at one place
Wiktionary wrote: An array of similar things.
artillery:
  • large but transportable armament
    an army unit that uses big guns
Wikipedia wrote:Artillery is a military combat Arm that employs weapons capable of discharging large projectiles in combat. They are generally capable of adding considerable fire power to the military capability of an armed force. Artillery is also a system of scientific research and its application towards design, capability and combat use of the above matériel . Over the course of military history the projectiles were manufactured from a wide variety of materials, made in a wide variety of shapes, and used different means of inflicting physical damage and casualties to defeat specific types of targets. The engineering designs of the means of delivery have likewise changed significantly over time, and have become some of the most complex technological application today.
Wiktionary wrote:Noun
1. Large cannon like weapons, transportable and usually operated by more than one person
2. A unit of the army, that uses such weapons
3. gunnery
Of course I realize there is rocket artillery like the Katyusha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyusha_rocket_launcher, which is also called a MRL (curiously, that's the the name of the static version of the mini-rocket artillery weapon).

My main point is, there should be something in the name that will make a new player realize that Ripple rockets are the ones pounding them from long range and not Mini-rockets :3
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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by whippersnapper » 03 Aug 2009, 22:09

.

Hmmm..... the following I find particularly informative and it is derived from primary military source references (I've bolded and under-lined some points):
Artillery

Historically, artillery refers to any engine used for the discharge of projectiles during war. The term also describes ground-based troops with the primary function of manning such weapons.

The word as used in the current context originated in the Middle Ages. It comes from the Old French atellier meaning "to arrange", and attillement meaning "equipment". From the 13th century an artillier referred to a builder of any war equipment, and for the next 250 years the sense of the word "artillery" covered all forms of military weapons.

"Artillery" is a general term covering several varieties of large-calibre weapons; currently these fire an explosive shell or rocket and are of such a size and weight as to require a specialized mount for firing and transport. Weapons covered by this term in the modern era include "tube" artillery such as the howitzer, cannon, mortar, and field gun and "rocket" artillery. Older engines like the catapult, onager, trebuchet and ballista are also artillery but generally fired a solid shot.

The types of tube artillery are generally distinguished by their ballistic trajectory. Cannons (such as infantry support guns or the guns on a naval ship) are typically low-angle weapons designed for a direct-fire role. Mortars are high-angle weapons originally used to drop shells behind the walls of a city. Howitzers are capable of both high- and low-angle fire. They are most often employed in an indirect-fire role.

Types of artillery:

* field artillery - mobile weapons used to support armies in the field. Includes:
o infantry support guns - directly support infantry units
o mountain guns - lightweight weapons that can be moved through difficult terrain
o mortars - lightweight weapons that fire projectiles at an angle of over 45 degrees to the horizontal

* naval artillery - cannons mounted on warships and used either against other ships or in support of ground forces.

* coastal artillery - Fixed-position weapons dedicated to defense of a particular location, usually a coast (e.g. the Atlantic Wall in WW 2) or harbor. Not needing to be mobile, coastal artillery can be much larger than equivalent field artillery pieces, giving them longer range and more destructive power. Since World War II, however, modern weapons and tactics have made them largely obsolete.

* anti-aircraft artillery - weapons, usually mobile, dedicated to attacking aircraft from the ground.

All forms of artillery require a propellant to fire the shell at the target. A number of different configurations have been developed, each with varying characteristics. They include:

* Tube fired - utilise the pressure of burnt propellant inside a barrel to force a projectile out of the mouth of the barrel.
o Spin stabilised - Use helical grooves or ridges on the inside of the barrel to impart a rotation to the projectile as it is travelling in the barrel.
o Fin stabilised - Use fins at the rear of the projectile in the airflow to maintain correct orientation.
o Inverted tube - Some weapons have been built with the tube built into the projectile and fitted onto a rod fitted to the carriage.

* Recoilless - A tube fired weapon with a breech designed to perforate a bursting disk at firing, and permit a mass of burnt propellant gases with
momentum equal to the projectile to exit from the rear of the barrel, to prevent recoil from affecting the weapon.

* Rocket propelled - Tube or rail launched - A reaction propulsion system mounted to the projectile provides continuous thrust for an initial period of the flight.

* Base bleed - A combination of Tube fired and rocket propelled - uses a small pyrotechnic charge at the base of the projectile to introduce sufficient combustion products into the low-pressure region responsible for a large proportion of the drag to substantially (> 30%) increase range. Also changes trajectory to non-ballistic, which may complicate counter-battery location.

The term "artillery" has traditionally not been used for projectiles with internal guidance systems. These are called missiles. Recent advances in terminal guidance systems for small munitions has allowed large calibre shells to be fitted with precision guidance fuses and can blur this distinction.

Depending on the calibre of the weapons, artillery is used in a variety of roles. Mortars fire relatively small-calibre projectiles in a high arc against targets concealed from the view of the firer. Other battlefield artillery includes longer-range weapons that fire in a flatter arc - the target may or may not be in view of the firer. Howitzers and such are generally used against hard targets such as bunkers or MBTs. Modern field artillery is often self-propelled (permanently mounted in a carriage or vehicle capable of moving independently) in order to move quickly from one firing position to another - to both support the fluid nature of modern combat and to avoid 'counter-battery fire'.

Radar has had a major impact on artillery. Coupled to computers it can accurately track an enemy shell in flight back to its firing point. This can be used as targeting information for 'counter-battery fire' - a term for the attack by artillery on an enemy artillery site. Radar improves the ability to return fire quickly and accurately. This greatly increases the all-weather flexibility of modern artillery. The rise in counter-battery capabilities drove the field artillery to adopt a 'shoot-and-scoot' philosophy emphasizing constant maneuver from place to place. This has required reliance on sometimes temperamental technology and increased the cost of modern field artillery pieces.
Source Page

Regards, whip :)
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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Zarel » 03 Aug 2009, 23:19

Batteries have traditionally referred to stationary emplacements. That's why the Mini-Rocket Artillery emplacement is called a Mini-Rocket Battery.

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Crushy » 04 Aug 2009, 02:07

Actually batteries usually refer to stationary emplacements because artillery usually doesn't need to fire on the move so they tend to stay put. Even MRL groups are called batteries (which are highly mobile in today's armies). The actual definition of battery is something like "squad" or "squadron"

whippersnapper, your definition is very in-depth but that's the traditional definition of artillery. Even modern APCs fire artillery pieces nowadays by those definitions, yet we don't call the Light cannon a Light cannon artillery.

A better example would be the Stug
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stug
The last thing people think when they see the word "artillery" is a turretless tank hunter, yet it was considered part of the artillery.
The term "artillery" has traditionally not been used for projectiles with internal guidance systems. These are called missiles. Recent advances in terminal guidance systems for small munitions has allowed large calibre shells to be fitted with precision guidance fuses and can blur this distinction.
I'm not sure if you were referring to ripple missiles, but I think those are unguided long range rockets (until you get the upgrades)
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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Zarel » 04 Aug 2009, 02:39

No, Ripple Rockets are always unguided. Heck, Angel/Archangel Missile are also unguided, but that's just because we haven't gotten around to implementing homing artillery yet.

Anyway, the point is that we're not going to be renaming these weapons unless you can propose a better name. "Mini-Rocket Battery" is a possibility, but unless I hear a lot of support for it I don't think it's worth renaming.

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by whippersnapper » 04 Aug 2009, 03:35

Crushy wrote:
whippersnapper, your definition is very in-depth but that's the traditional definition of artillery.
The second clause of that sentence is incorrect (what I underlined). The definition I quoted covers EVERYTHING between the 13th century and right now in 2009 for RL artillery military ops, tech and nomenclature...... and, for our purposes, by extension, what is understood in WZ 2100 weaps designated as such. Though of course WZ is an RTS and NOT a Grognard Simulation so there is game-latitude in favor of Fun and KISS design within the RTS genre which is not acceptable in a War Sim game... Different audiences, is all, really. :cool:

Regards, whip :ninja:

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by psychopompos » 04 Aug 2009, 03:38

the hardcore campaign mod has these weapons firing the same range as mortars.
this makes them usable, rather then relegated to the pit of "well that doesnt quite work".

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Zarel » 04 Aug 2009, 04:56

psychopompos wrote:the hardcore campaign mod has these weapons firing the same range as mortars.
this makes them usable, rather then relegated to the pit of "well that doesnt quite work".
If you think their current range "doesn't quite work", then you're clearly using them incorrectly.

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Deus Siddis » 04 Aug 2009, 05:00

Give mini-rocket artillery, artillery range.

Because rocket pods are a direct-fire weapon and are in real life a good salvo weapon, give rocket pods a salvo-fire and make them useful against similarly light targets instead of tanks (rockets pods are not useful against tanks in reality anyway).

And then we can finally be done with this dumb and confusing issue.

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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Crushy » 04 Aug 2009, 05:27

whippersnapper wrote: The second clause of that sentence is incorrect (what I underlined). The definition I quoted covers EVERYTHING between the 13th century and right now in 2009 for RL artillery military ops, tech and nomenclature...... and, for our purposes, by extension, what is understood in WZ 2100 weaps designated as such. Though of course WZ is an RTS and NOT a Grognard Simulation so there is game-latitude in favor of Fun and KISS design within the RTS genre which is not acceptable in a War Sim game... Different audiences, is all, really. :cool:

Regards, whip :ninja:
Yes, but I went in here saying that the Mini-rocket artillery isn't considered artillery by most folks because it's not a long range weapon. By military terms, even guns mounted on tanks are considered artillery (hell, some tank guns were even AA guns originally) yet we don't call them Heavy cannon artillery in game.

I just want everything to be consistent, that's all. The way I see it it's like using an old English word to describe something in the middle of a contemporary article.

The problem with me is most minds immediately see the mini-rocket as an alternative to mortars because of the artillery part in the name. I know it's an artillery piece by military definition as you've proven, but even a military-minded mind sometimes makes these associations.

Also it just seems strange that what is basically a larger mini-pod gets suddenly called artillery for no reason at all instead of "missile array" or something

(hope no one is taking offence at this argument)
--------------------------------------------------------
I want to keep balance issues aside but I just want to add that for some reason I keep hoping MRLs had a longer range so I could place them near my mortars. I really have no reason for doing this, I just think they would look awesome as a short range rocket salvo. :twisted:
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Re: Mini-rocket ARTILLERY

Post by Zarel » 04 Aug 2009, 06:31

You can talk about changing the Mini-Rocket Artillery's range all you want, but it's not going to be changed. It's balanced like that for good reason.

Names, however; I'm open to change. "Mini-Rocket Array" could work... Thoughts?

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