Propulsion : somes ideas, asking and crying

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D.Durand
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Propulsion : somes ideas, asking and crying

Post by D.Durand »

yep !

For my mod, i want to erase half-track (no use in-game. In RL, half-track are really good in transport, but WZ don't have use for that, even with cyborgs transport). No problem with that i suppose (i don't think WZ crash if he don't find half-track ?).

But i want other propulsions, and i want a propulsion can be obsolete, has some structures. For example, i have two PIE for antigrav propulsion, after you research the light antigrav, wheels are obsoletes and can't be used in new plans, and same thing for the heavy antigrav and the tracks (that's L4 techs). I have also a PIE for L4 VTOL.
It seem we can only use VTOL, WHEEL, TRACK, HALFTRACK and HOVER in the stats files. Then no new propulsion ?

Can we have WATER propulsions ? I want boats. I love boats.
Don't answer we don't have a lot of water maps : We don't have a lot of water maps because we don't have boats. Compare Warcraft II and Starcraft : Same engine, but no boats for SC, then more or less no water in SC maps...
Boats propulsion can have a lot more body points than a track, too.

I see, in the stats files, the Propulsions have a damage bonus. I understand that for, say, VTOL, but there is no difference between a wheeled tank and a Tracked tank (ask a soldier) in damage resistance. The wheeled can be stopped more easily by barriers (in WZ, all land units are stopped by barriers, even hover), ruins (can damage the wheels, but ruins can't damage units in WZ) or heavy bullets (slowed, in that case, but damages don't slow units in WZ).

What i propose is :

An accuracy modifier (defense) for propulsion : Wheeled are more agiles than tracks, and then a ennemy who whant shoot hit have a malus for that.
Same thing : A VTOL can have a big AC modifier, because he is really hard to hit. No need for damage modifier for the VTOL : Just put 0 "body points" for the poor VTOL.

The damage modifier for the BODY ! Light body is VCBI or Bradley, Medium is AMX 10 RC, Heavy is Leclerc or Challenger.
Because it's the body that have the armor : If a heavy MG can hurt a Bradley and decimate cyborgs, i can see the bullets boucing on the Leclerc  ::)

As you know, the old AMX 10RC can really hurt an Abrams, even probably the latest model (105mm gun, somebody ?), but can't resist the counter-attack because it is tiny (it's a cute little tank) with too few armor. Then the tactic, against big, fatty tanks is to use his agility for not be hit.

Then, in-game, an Abrams can be a "Tiger+Track+Hyper Velocity Cannon", and the AMX 10 RC can be a Panther/Leopard+Wheels+Heavy gun.

Well, Wheels are more agiles, and have more speed. And cost less, too.

The tracks can have three advantages :

One, they have no malus in slopes.

Two, they don't need to move for turn. yes, no space required, it's what the tracks can do : An entire gang of track-tank can change direction as much has 180° instantaneously.

Three, if we add more terrains in WZ, Tracks don't have malus in difficults terrains (has rocky, sand, snow, swamp...) : Wheels, and probably hovers (on rockies) and cyborgs have. Damn, it's what track are for : Run on impassables terrains !
I say special terrains, has Rockies, can have a Speed Modifier (by example a SM of 25% say the speed of units that run on it drop at 25%).
And propulsions have a "modifier of the modifier". By example, a wheel have 100% (full speed modifier for the poor wheeleds), but track have 10 % (On Rockies, a tank has a Speed Modifier of 10% from 25%, thats 2.5% : The tank go at 97.5% of his speed).


That's what i propose :

1° No more damage modifier on propulsions : Put it on bodies.

2° Accuracy modifier (for defense purpose) on propulsions.

3° Tracks can turn instantaneously (need to stop for that, maybe).

4° Difficult grounds, with base speed modifiers, with modifier of the modifier for each propulsion.

5° Water propulsion.

6° Can add propulsions.
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Watermelon
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Re: Propulsion : somes ideas, asking and crying

Post by Watermelon »

D.Durand wrote: yep !

For my mod, i want to erase half-track (no use in-game. In RL, half-track are really good in transport, but WZ don't have use for that, even with cyborgs transport). No problem with that i suppose (i don't think WZ crash if he don't find half-track ?).

But i want other propulsions, and i want a propulsion can be obsolete, has some structures. For example, i have two PIE for antigrav propulsion, after you research the light antigrav, wheels are obsoletes and can't be used in new plans, and same thing for the heavy antigrav and the tracks (that's L4 techs). I have also a PIE for L4 VTOL.
It seem we can only use VTOL, WHEEL, TRACK, HALFTRACK and HOVER in the stats files. Then no new propulsion ?

Can we have WATER propulsions ? I want boats. I love boats.
Don't answer we don't have a lot of water maps : We don't have a lot of water maps because we don't have boats. Compare Warcraft II and Starcraft : Same engine, but no boats for SC, then more or less no water in SC maps...
Boats propulsion can have a lot more body points than a track, too.

I see, in the stats files, the Propulsions have a damage bonus. I understand that for, say, VTOL, but there is no difference between a wheeled tank and a Tracked tank (ask a soldier) in damage resistance. The wheeled can be stopped more easily by barriers (in WZ, all land units are stopped by barriers, even hover), ruins (can damage the wheels, but ruins can't damage units in WZ) or heavy bullets (slowed, in that case, but damages don't slow units in WZ).

What i propose is :

An accuracy modifier (defense) for propulsion : Wheeled are more agiles than tracks, and then a ennemy who whant shoot hit have a malus for that.
Same thing : A VTOL can have a big AC modifier, because he is really hard to hit. No need for damage modifier for the VTOL : Just put 0 "body points" for the poor VTOL.

The damage modifier for the BODY ! Light body is VCBI or Bradley, Medium is AMX 10 RC, Heavy is Leclerc or Challenger.
Because it's the body that have the armor : If a heavy MG can hurt a Bradley and decimate cyborgs, i can see the bullets boucing on the Leclerc  ::)

As you know, the old AMX 10RC can really hurt an Abrams, even probably the latest model (105mm gun, somebody ?), but can't resist the counter-attack because it is tiny (it's a cute little tank) with too few armor. Then the tactic, against big, fatty tanks is to use his agility for not be hit.

Then, in-game, an Abrams can be a "Tiger+Track+Hyper Velocity Cannon", and the AMX 10 RC can be a Panther/Leopard+Wheels+Heavy gun.

Well, Wheels are more agiles, and have more speed. And cost less, too.

The tracks can have three advantages :

One, they have no malus in slopes.

Two, they don't need to move for turn. yes, no space required, it's what the tracks can do : An entire gang of track-tank can change direction as much has 180° instantaneously.

Three, if we add more terrains in WZ, Tracks don't have malus in difficults terrains (has rocky, sand, snow, swamp...) : Wheels, and probably hovers (on rockies) and cyborgs have. Damn, it's what track are for : Run on impassables terrains !
I say special terrains, has Rockies, can have a Speed Modifier (by example a SM of 25% say the speed of units that run on it drop at 25%).
And propulsions have a "modifier of the modifier". By example, a wheel have 100% (full speed modifier for the poor wheeleds), but track have 10 % (On Rockies, a tank has a Speed Modifier of 10% from 25%, thats 2.5% : The tank go at 97.5% of his speed).


That's what i propose :

1° No more damage modifier on propulsions : Put it on bodies.

2° Accuracy modifier (for defense purpose) on propulsions.

3° Tracks can turn instantaneously (need to stop for that, maybe).

4° Difficult grounds, with base speed modifiers, with modifier of the modifier for each propulsion.

5° Water propulsion.

6° Can add propulsions.
removing/changing exist propulsions will crash the game unless you change all data files and source files depend on them.

Propulsion types are hardcoded,I am changing the source directly to add more propulsion types(the ones in my sig)

the naval units are a bit tricky because most naval units will be bigger than one tile size(128x128,even dragon size is less than 128x128).
tasks postponed until the trunk is relatively stable again.
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Obaum
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Re: Propulsion : somes ideas, asking and crying

Post by Obaum »

Water propulsion = dock? or warter factory lol
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DevUrandom
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Re: Propulsion : somes ideas, asking and crying

Post by DevUrandom »

D.Durand wrote: [...]
1° No more damage modifier on propulsions : Put it on bodies.
Sounds sensible, especially as we have the real-hit-system now (for 2.1)...
Fast propulsions allready get a bonus, because they can move out of way more easily.
D.Durand wrote: 2° Accuracy modifier (for defense purpose) on propulsions.
Absolete for the same reason as 1.
D.Durand wrote: 3° Tracks can turn instantaneously (need to stop for that, maybe).
Needs someone do see if the code is capable of this...
D.Durand wrote: 4° Difficult grounds, with base speed modifiers, with modifier of the modifier for each propulsion.
Sounds very interesting... Needs some investigation, too.
D.Durand wrote: 6° Can add propulsions.
Hope we can do that for 2.1... Probably a bit tricky since I bet the sourcecode requires some propulsions to be present...
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D.Durand
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Re: Propulsion : somes ideas, asking and crying

Post by D.Durand »

@ Watermelon.

Helis ? Cool ! As The brawelrs of TA or something else ?

Water Units ? YAY ! But no need to have bigger units than usual, i think : We just need to put more Body Point in Water Propulsion.

You add more propulsion by recoding ? Why not recoding, then, for the game use a textfile, called by example /stats/propulsions.txt where the Propulsions are writed. Less hardcoding is always better.

@ Devrandom

1 and 2° : I don't think "obsolete" is the word. Move the modifier to Body (or even add the same modifier to Bodie) don't seem too hard for me (i'm coder, even if not in this language) : It's just a connector thing.
I don't think we have a "real-hit-system now". We have a hit-system.
Don't say the fast propulsions have already a bonus because they can mode out of the way more easily : If you need micromanage each unit for dodge each incomming bullet, you can say bye-bye to attacks from more than one direction, or even look at other part of the game when your unit is attacked.
Actually, units don't dodge by themselves (it's the word ?) : If you don't micromanage them, they don't dodge. And if you can make dodge all the units of a panzer division of 24 units fighting with two handfull Hard point and Bunkers, you are a god.

You see, the problem is, for now, only one land propulsion have an use : Tracks.

- Wheels are fast, and have some "damage modifiers", but they have too few Body Point and die really fast. Even arty units use tracks : You can afford the cost, in a game as WZ with endless supplies, and more important a game map is a game map : All arty units can be easily surprized by a counter-attack, and because you don't look at them (you are with your front-line units), can't react fast (and if you remember arty units are always locked to a radar unit and REFUSE to move if the radar unit don't have already run away, you imagine put wheels on arty units is condamn arty units to die).

- Half-track are without use : Slower than wheels, less body points than tracks. Nobody use really them, even for trucks or arty units (if you can afford half-track, you can afford tracks). If you want die-hard units, you use tracks. If you really want speedy units (for repair units, maybe trucks), you use wheels.

Actually, with no accuracy modifier and a damage modifier put on propulsions, we can have only two units plan (without weapons) :

Wheels + lighter body (fore those who want the fastest unit possible, but them use Hover, and they are rare. Even for truck and radar).
Tracks + heavier body (for others, even trucks and healers at front-line - damn, the new AI seem to like shoot them - and Arty).

With my idea, we have more choice, and an use for wheels.
If you look around the RL world, you see tracked tank are used in open terrain (it's why we say Irak is a "playground" for the US army). In closed terrains, as forest, mountains, and particulary cities, you see wheeled tanks. Heavily armed wheeled tank, but wheeled tanks.
Actually, in WZ, who use wheeled tank if he can have tracked ?
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Re: Propulsion : somes ideas, asking and crying

Post by Watermelon »

D.Durand wrote: @ Watermelon.

Helis ? Cool ! As The brawelrs of TA or something else ?

Water Units ? YAY ! But no need to have bigger units than usual, i think : We just need to put more Body Point in Water Propulsion.

You add more propulsion by recoding ? Why not recoding, then, for the game use a textfile, called by example /stats/propulsions.txt where the Propulsions are writed. Less hardcoding is always better.
I think brawler(the one does strafe left and right when firing its rapid cannon iirc) is just a regular plane with a different fighting style in TA,it's not helix(hover)

Battleships should be at least few times bigger than a 'droid' in wz,think it should be armed with few naval cannons,AA weapons.
Also I want to add aircraft carrier,which must be bigger than 3x5 tiles(runway along is 1x5 tiles big),not sure how to implement that though,need to add some 'tiles hogged by this unit' properties to the droid struct I guess.

removing native code and move them to external data source is good,but WZ data is everywhere in source files,quite alot propulsion stuff is #define in move.c and tons of functions just 'depend on' the default 8 or so propulsion to function properly...
tasks postponed until the trunk is relatively stable again.
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Re: Propulsion : somes ideas, asking and crying

Post by Rman Virgil »

Watermelon wrote: I think brawler(the one does strafe left and right when firing its rapid cannon iirc) is just a regular plane with a different fighting style in TA,it's not helix(hover)

Battleships should be at least few times bigger than a 'droid' in wz,think it should be armed with few naval cannons,AA weapons.
Also I want to add aircraft carrier,which must be bigger than 3x5 tiles(runway along is 1x5 tiles big),not sure how to implement that though,need to add some 'tiles hogged by this unit' properties to the droid struct I guess.

removing native code and move them to external data source is good,but WZ data is everywhere in source files,quite alot propulsion stuff is #define in move.c and tons of functions just 'depend on' the default 8 or so propulsion to function properly...

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