Sensor specialization

[Luke]

I'd like to make a suggestion regarding the various sensor turrets we have in-game. Sorry in advance this is lengthy.

Firstly. I like the new Radar Detector turret. Though I haven't played around with it much yet in-game, the addition of a new passive sensor really opens up the EW possibility for the future.

Next. In my opinion, the existing sensor turrets are specialized backwards. (Before I go any further I'll acknowledge the danger in comparing Warzone to RL - but hear me out). I'll illustrate with a breakdown of the turrets and their various abilities.

1. Sensor turret. Detects: Land and air units & structures. Engages: Land units & structures. Controls: Artillery fire ONLY.
2. CB turret. Detects: Enemy artillery fire. Engages: Hostile artillery. Controls: Artillery fire ONLY. (Note - ingame also sometimes functions as a Sensor Tower).
3. VTOL Strike turret. Detects: Land and air units & structures. Engages: Land units & structures. Controls: Air units ONLY.
4. VTOL CB Turret. Detects: Enemy artillery fire. Engages: Hostile artillery. Controls: Air units ONLY.
5. Wide spectrum turret. Combines all of the above.
6. Radar detector turret. Passive sensor, Detects radiation emissions from above sensors.

As they currently exist, the sensors are specialized not by what they are able to detect, but what sort of fire they control. This is a bit unrealistic and in my opinion reduces the flexibility you have with the multiple tower options. Radars are designed and specialized by what sort of target they are trying to detect & track. Air defense radars will scan the sky and return azimuth, elevation, range, & the associated rates - from this in various ways it can discern the position and velocity vectors of the target, and can in some cases identify its type. These radars, however, are not useful for mapping ground targets. Instead, ground mapping radars (usually air or satellite borne, but for gameplay perspective can & should be ground based) scan the earth's surface for radar returns, and will naturally be horizon line-of-sight and terrain-mask limited. These radars will return azimuth & range from which a coordinate can be determined, and often a velocity as well. Think of the spinning radars mounted on boats - they scan horizontally, looking for surface returns. They won't be optimized to detect air targets, however. Finally, we have counter-battery radars, which do in real life what the CB turrets do: detect artillery fire by its characteristic trajectory, then extrapolate coordinates for point of origin, and point of impact.

Now it stands to reason that once a ground-mapping radar, for example, has identified a target on the ground; its coordinates are known, and ANYTHING could theoretically be ordered to attack it: ground units, artillery, or air units. Likewise, once artillery fire is detected by a CB radar, and the enemy battery's coordinates have been calculated, these could be sent equally well to either a friendly battery or an air unit.

The air defense radar is a little different. If it can only detect air units, then it could only scramble air units against them. This can have applications in many cases. It also opens the possibility for indirect-fire air defense systems: think strategic SAMs. The in-game SAMs are really short-range tactical SAMs which behave like cooled-sensor heat-seeking missiles (the fact that in-game they can chase a VTOL all the way across the map is an unrealistic feature that I can live with because I find it amusing). But I won't further discuss my ideas for strategic SAMs in this thread, because I have a second thread I will start in a minute which will address problems with the game's air defense technologies and suggest alternative implementations.

But now back to the matter at hand. I think we should reorganize the 4 basic sensor towers into 3, specialized by what they detect, but each equally able to command any type of friendly force. As it stands, there are 4 different basic turrets but they have too much overlap between them - for example, the CB tower behaves like a normal sensor when it isn't targeting artillery - which is not always what you want, nor realistic for this type of sensor. Likewise, why are there two types of CB turrets? They both detect the same thing, and it makes no sense for one to be able to send coordinates only to artillery, the other one only to VTOLs. Thus, below is my suggestion for reorganization of the sensor types.

*Note: All turrets would be able to "see" all types of enemies and thus reveal them on the map, due to the native "sensor" built-in onboard all units and structures. The differences would be in what they can target.

1. Sensor turret. Targets ground units and structures ONLY. Commands artillery and VTOLs.
2. Air Defense turret. Targets enemy VTOLs ONLY. Commands VTOLs and perhaps SAMs at beyond their native line of sight range.
3. CB turret. Targets enemy artillery ONLY. Commands artillery and VTOLs.
4. Keep the Wide Spectrum turret unchanged as a combination of all sensors
5. Keep the Radar Detector unchanged

Another way to say the same thing: Combine the two CB turrets, and make them exclusively CB (i.e. no targeting anything else if there is no artillery incoming: leave this combo functionality for the Wide Spectrum turret). Next, differentiate the Sensor Turret and the VTOL Strike turret into exclusively ground-mapping and air-mapping, respectively, but allow either one to direct both arty and VTOLs. Again, the Wide Spectrum would allow mapping of both air and ground simultaneously.

Notice how this plan actually reduces the number of turrets by 1 - but potentially increases flexibility, as now the player can design/build a sensor to do exactly what he wants, and can still build the Wide Spectrum sensor if he wants the do-it-all turret. The key is to remove the specialization from "what kind of fires does this turret control", because the player can choose this himself by what kind of units he assigns to a sensor and is therefore a redundant constraint, and instead change it to "All turrets can control any types of fires, but each can only detect a specific thing."

Anyway, I know that was lengthy. Please respond with thoughts and your own perspectives. In a few minutes I'll make a post about my ideas on how to re-tool air defense in Warzone.

[Per]

I think you make some good points. I'd also like to combine the two CB turrets into one, and split out a separate turret for tracking air units. The latter is mostly for practical playing reasons, since I would like to have VTOLs of my own automatically engaging hostile VTOLs, which is very hard to do now since general sensor turrets on the perimeter would usually send the anti-VTOL VTOLs on general purpose missions instead.

There are some issues with sensors at the moment. I'd just list some of them from the top of my head:

• You cannot share sensor info with allies.
• The way you communicate sensor info to nearby, not assigned droids and structures depends on a rather arbitrary distance.
• The research requirements for the various turrets and towers vary in form - sometimes you need to research a separate tower, sometimes you don't, and so on.
• The range of the Radar Detector is probably way too short. Currently it is twice the range of the detected sensor.
• The HQ has a sensor. Increasing the range of the Radar Detector may cause it to become a too easy target.
• The CB turret is not, as its name would seem to suggest, a counter-strategy at all. It solidifies and virtually guarantees indirect fire supremacy.
• Sensors on structures and on droids have rules with difficult to understand and somewhat arbitrary differences.
• Perhaps due to the above, I have the impression that sensors on droids are not often used.

One new sensor idea I would love to implement one day is a passive motion sensor that listens to vibrations in the ground as those huge tanks roll around. Perhaps also detect that annoying noise from the oil derricks It could be a nice, late-game counter-counter measure against the Radar Detector.

[zoid]

The CB turret is not, as its name would seem to suggest, a counter-strategy at all. It solidifies and virtually guarantees indirect fire supremacy.

A radar jammer and anit-jammer weapon wouldn't be bad either. It might buy you enough time to build a bit of arty while the enemy CB's were jammed.

[KenAlcock]

I think you make some good points.

No, he makes some excellent points!

I'd also like to combine the two CB turrets into one...

I believe this is exactly along the lines of what the Luke was suggesting. A <type of> sensor should target a <type of> unit or structure. The <type of> sensor, then dispatches any explicitly assigned mobile units or implicitly assigned defensive structures to neutralize the targeted <type of> unit or structure.

..., and split out a separate turret for tracking air units.

This is really missing from the WZ game, and a VTOL Sensor turrent (or tower) should have two applications: scrambling fighter VTOLS to intercept the incoming VTOLs, and providing longer range targeting (and greater accuracy) to anti-aircraft defenses. Along this line, I suggest re-balancing the internal sensor ranges of anti-aircraft turrets so they work similar to those of artillery. Let me illustrate what I mean by this. Currently, a Groundshaker Howitzer has its own internal sensor (I do not know its exact range), but its internal sensor cannot sense enemy ground units no where near as far away as its maximum effective range. Likewise, a Vindicator SAM site should have a similar variance between its maximum effective range, and the range of its internal sensor. However, if we were to build one of these new VTOL Sensor towers father out from our base, then we could track incoming VTOLs at a greater distance and our Vindicator SAM sites could enage incoming VTOLS at maximum effective range. And it might not hurt to increase the accuracy as well (if this is also what happens when artillery is paired with a sensor).

There are some issues with sensors at the moment...

• The research requirements for the various turrets and towers vary in form - sometimes you need to research a separate tower, sometimes you don't, and so on.

...

This is one of my huge pet peeves.

• Researching a Sensor Tower also gives you the Sensor Turret.
• You must research a CB Tower before a CB Turrent.
• You must research a Wide Spectrum Sensor Turrent before a Wide Spectrum Sensor Tower.

There is just no consistency here and it really needs to be standardized. One might argue that since tower sensors have greater range, perhaps they should come after the Sensor turret in the research tree. But look at real world technology; it is always more difficult and costly to build a mobile sensor, than a stationary one. The mobile sensor electronics must be integrated within the cramped space of a vehicle's body, much of that space has already devoted to the propulsion of the vehicle. By contrast, a tower is devoted only to hosting the sensor. In other words, the ground radar towers were invented first, then ship-based radar, and finally mobile ground unit radar and plane-base radar.

There are some issues with sensors at the moment...

Add these to that list:

• A Wide Spectrum Sensor Tower does not perform its Counter Battery function. From what I observe, it will target enemy ground units within range, enemy structures within range all the while letting your sensor tower or nearby structures and artillery units get pounded by enemy artillery. I end up building CB towers next to my Wide Spectrum Sensor Towers in order to better protect my defensive position from enemy artillery.
• A Mobile Wide Spectrum Sensor Turret can target the enemy at a fairly good distance, so why does it charge into battle as if it were a heavy tank?
  
  I often build 10 mobile arty units and 5 sensors. I assign the 10 units to 1 sensor and leave the rest back at they nearest safe rally point. I then go about targeting enemy units or structures. I always issue the following orders to my combat units, including sensors:
  • Fire at long range
  • Retreat at medium damage
  • Fire at will
  • Hold position
  I always babysit my mobile WS sensors, starting first with hold position orders. Then, I target a bunch of structures in range. But if I turn my head for just a second that damned sensor will charge into enemy ranks like he's gonna kick butt all on his own and he gets killed every time! I have even had my WS sensor unit selected and kept clicking on a tile closer to my lines to issue him movement orders to retreat, only to see him keep charging, disobeying my movement orders. This is why I end up building 5 sensors to 10 arty units--I can go the whole game with the same 10 arty units, but the 5 sensors will go kamikaze every time.