VTOLs: bombers
VTOLs: bombers
So, we have VTOLs. I've experimented with them myself in skirmish, and was surprised on their speed. While, for example, Lancer and HPV Cannon (hypervelocity) VTOLs have a decent speed, bombers suck. My lightest land vehicles can propably go faster than a Thermite bomber with the lightest body available (Paradigm Bug). How are bombers ever supposed to reach their target, if any kind of AA is present? The computer player had one Cyclone AA site (I think it was Cyclone, anyway the flak AA), I had 4 of these bombers. Result of a bombing run to a target next to the AA site: one bomber destroyed, another heavily damaged. And they say gun AA is useless!
Also, think of the bomb damage compared to, say HPV damage. Fully upgraded, VTOL HPV Cannon does 515 damage, and can fire four times before rearming is needed (damage during attack: 2060). Thermite bomb does 400 damage, and only one is dropped before reload. Why build bombers while they have these attributes, because it seems that other weapon VTOLs are superior in every single aspect?
If someone doesn't find a use for them, I'd suggest that bomb bay weight should be reduced and/or their damage increased. Or give the bombs some damage upgrades: they currently have none, while almost all other weapons do.
Edit: corrected the HPV total damage.
Also, think of the bomb damage compared to, say HPV damage. Fully upgraded, VTOL HPV Cannon does 515 damage, and can fire four times before rearming is needed (damage during attack: 2060). Thermite bomb does 400 damage, and only one is dropped before reload. Why build bombers while they have these attributes, because it seems that other weapon VTOLs are superior in every single aspect?
If someone doesn't find a use for them, I'd suggest that bomb bay weight should be reduced and/or their damage increased. Or give the bombs some damage upgrades: they currently have none, while almost all other weapons do.
Edit: corrected the HPV total damage.
Re: VTOLs: bombers
I find that only the light bombers are much use to me aswell, the others are just too heavy (and probably costly).
Using the bug for heavy bomb bays isn't the way to get the fastest vtol bomber though. The bug's engine output is tiny so it's much better using on a body which is a fairly light weight for it's type but has a high engine output.Nyme wrote:My lightest land vehicles can propably go faster than a Thermite bomber with the lightest body available (Paradigm Bug)
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Re: VTOLs: bombers
while hpv is a direct kinetic weapon, thermite bombs are thermal splash, this means (most effectively) against a groups cyborgs it'll do great damage with a single 'shot'
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Re: VTOLs: bombers
I have a use for bombers... but it's from way back in WW2.
You say you put them on the Bug body, and then got shot down. That doesn't surprise me; even with AA's accuracy being as bad as it is, it doesn't take much to kill a bug.
Try putting a bomber on the Heavy body platform. They are expensive and build for a while, to be sure, but the speed will be about the same as on a light body. So they will fly into the opponents base, have 29038429 AA guns firing at them, laugh them all off, and drop their payload.
Note that the Thermite and HEAP bombs are, as was noted above, best used against large clusters of troops. Their blast radius (with no loss in damage from center to edge) is the reason to use them.
Basically, "Bombers" are best used in a "Carpet Bombing" strat. Line 6-10 of them abreast, and have them just fire their ordinance at whatever they fly over, causing huge, wide-area damage.
You say you put them on the Bug body, and then got shot down. That doesn't surprise me; even with AA's accuracy being as bad as it is, it doesn't take much to kill a bug.
Try putting a bomber on the Heavy body platform. They are expensive and build for a while, to be sure, but the speed will be about the same as on a light body. So they will fly into the opponents base, have 29038429 AA guns firing at them, laugh them all off, and drop their payload.
Note that the Thermite and HEAP bombs are, as was noted above, best used against large clusters of troops. Their blast radius (with no loss in damage from center to edge) is the reason to use them.
Basically, "Bombers" are best used in a "Carpet Bombing" strat. Line 6-10 of them abreast, and have them just fire their ordinance at whatever they fly over, causing huge, wide-area damage.
Re: VTOLs: bombers
Ok, so I tested and heavier bodies are indeed as fast as light ones. They were indeed much more useful than Bugs.
How do you do this? By giving a target to each bomber individually? For me it seems not to work when I just fly them over an enemy bunker concentration.themousemaster wrote:Basically, "Bombers" are best used in a "Carpet Bombing" strat. Line 6-10 of them abreast, and have them just fire their ordinance at whatever they fly over, causing huge, wide-area damage.
Re: VTOLs: bombers
Fastest bombers can be created with medium bodies (Retribution is fastest, Panther is the slowest among them).
Heavy and slowly moving bomber will get much more AA hits—advantage in HP and armor is practically nullified.
Heavy and slowly moving bomber will get much more AA hits—advantage in HP and armor is practically nullified.
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Re: VTOLs: bombers
rkhayrov wrote:Fastest bombers can be created with medium bodies (Retribution is fastest, Panther is the slowest among them).
Heavy and slowly moving bomber will get much more AA hits—advantage in HP and armor is practically nullified.
In 1.X and 2.0.X, you are correct. But in 2.1.X, AA is so bad, that Heavy bodies can fly through even the densest AA fields, drop their bombs, and return with ease.
Actually, yes. Since my VTOL pads are usually pretty far away from their targets, I first give them all the same target (so that they all lift off and start flying at once), then I 1-at-a-time give them specific targets in a wide line.Nyme wrote:How do you do this? By giving a target to each bomber individually? For me it seems not to work when I just fly them over an enemy bunker concentration.
Note that I have 2 different bombing strats; the above one I use if I have a large ground force ready to move in, and I want to soften up the front lines (and for whatever reason, Artillery isn't the best choice). The other strat, for when I want to do damage to infrastructure, is to split the bombers in my base into groups of 3 (say, I put 1 3-group at the very back, 1 3-group at my CC, 1 3-group at my VTOL pads, 1 3-group at my front wall, etc), and then I select all of them at once and give them an Bombing queue; since only 3 of them fire at once, I usually don't have very much "overkill", and can get maximum bang for my "queued" buck without having to watch them. Since I know (without SAMs or interceptor-aircraft) they are pretty safe, I don't have to watch them as they do it.
Re: VTOLs: bombers
Further clarification: in 2.1 campaign In MP and skirmish AA is quite deadly.themousemaster wrote:In 1.X and 2.0.X, you are correct. But in 2.1.X, AA is so bad, that Heavy bodies can fly through even the densest AA fields, drop their bombs, and return with ease.
Re: VTOLs: bombers
Can you create a bug report of this?rkhayrov wrote: Further clarification: in 2.1 campaign In MP and skirmish AA is quite deadly.
Re: VTOLs: bombers
Huh, so that's not intended?Per wrote:Further clarification: in 2.1 campaign In MP and skirmish AA is quite deadly.
Can you create a bug report of this?
I use trunk version exclusively (regularly rebuilding Debian packages) for more than half a year. Is there any differences between 2.1 release branch and trunk regarding AA behavior?
I haven't played campaign in 2.1, but didn't notice significant changes in AA effectiveness in MP throughout development cycle. That's why I decided changes are campaign only.
Also AA upgrades (damage and ROF combined) dramatically change its effectiveness. Hurricane without upgrades is not a serious threat, even massed. So maybe we just have different views of the same thing.
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Re: VTOLs: bombers
rkhayrov wrote: Huh, so that's not intended?
I use trunk version exclusively (regularly rebuilding Debian packages) for more than half a year. Is there any differences between 2.1 release branch and trunk regarding AA behavior?
I haven't played campaign in 2.1, but didn't notice significant changes in AA effectiveness in MP throughout development cycle. That's why I decided changes are campaign only.
Also AA upgrades (damage and ROF combined) dramatically change its effectiveness. Hurricane without upgrades is not a serious threat, even massed. So maybe we just have different views of the same thing.
You sure about all that?
I just played a skirmish game, and flew 2 heavy (Python) bombers over an area which the computer had no less than 50 AA emplacements.
Both made it out alive. One was in red health, but that's still ludicrously ineffective AA.
Re: VTOLs: bombers
Absolutely. Right now, playing on 2c-Highway against Aivolution. Two Pythons with HEAP bombs were destroyed by compact array of 7 Hurricane emplacements before reaching their target. Game built from trunk r6472.themousemaster wrote:You sure about all that?
I just played a skirmish game, and flew 2 heavy (Python) bombers over an area which the computer had no less than 50 AA emplacements.
So I never make heavy slow moving VTOLs in presence of AA.
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Re: VTOLs: bombers
So... AA guns in my games, either campaign OR skirmish, aren't as effective as AA in your skirmish games, but the same as your campaigns?
Along with the statement that changes to skirmish weapons not changing their effect in Campaign (specifically, the Scourge) not being true, I find some of these recent changes quite weird...
Along with the statement that changes to skirmish weapons not changing their effect in Campaign (specifically, the Scourge) not being true, I find some of these recent changes quite weird...
Re: VTOLs: bombers
i do say the aa needs to have fix, im still earlyin playing the game but i dont think i like how all these aa topics are going.
in camapian 2 i know you need aa to live in the first few mssions
in camapian 2 i know you need aa to live in the first few mssions
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Re: VTOLs: bombers
just make sure your aa is placed in your base area... at least 4. more is better if you can afford them.