Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Discuss the future of Warzone 2100 with us.

Should the Guard Position & Pursue Orders be brought back?

Yes
45
92%
No
4
8%
 
Total votes : 49

Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby vexed » 05 Aug 2015, 03:25

Per wrote:
vexed wrote:Now, can we agree that it is working, as it should in the video?

I don't know.

This is the original game, right?

Yeah.
It was not clear from the video - did you click on the target units, or were the targets automatically acquired?

The only thing I did was set front units to pursue, and 2 rear ones to hold...
They each picked their own targets. I did nothing else.
By the way, since there has never been any future position extrapolation code in the game, it must be cheating to follow those units in and out of visibility. Are you fine with that?

I am wondering if it goes to their last known location or what...could be cheating as well, haven't looked at the code.
/facepalm ...Grinch stole Warzone🙈🙉🙊 contra principia negantem non est disputandum
Super busy, don't expect a timely reply back.
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby stiv » 05 Aug 2015, 03:49

Just going to last known position would be an improvement over how it seems to work in 3.1.2 release Based on some informal testing, an MG Viper/wheels gave up even though the truck was still visible. As long as the target remained visible, I would expect the attack to continue.

P.S. I started writing up some Use Cases for the wiki. Will post a link later.
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby Per » 05 Aug 2015, 18:27

I don't think the 'Pursue' behaviour shown in the video above is very good. It ignores new targets and basically goes on a suicide mission into enemy territory. That would be okay if the user clicked 'attack' on the target unit, but for an automatic behaviour it is quite silly.
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby Berg » 05 Aug 2015, 23:05

Per wrote:I don't think the 'Pursue' behaviour shown in the video above is very good. It ignores new targets and basically goes on a suicide mission into enemy territory. That would be okay if the user clicked 'attack' on the target unit, but for an automatic behaviour it is quite silly.


If it was a group of 50 tanks pursuing to find an enemy base its not silly behaviour.

If you send one tank on a suicide mission then you lost your tank but you'll have a path to the enemy.

Its how you use the tactic that matters not the set and forget option.

I really think having everything automatic is not playing the game you need user input ...AI to rule you tanks is good so you have someone to blame when you fail.

The essence of WARZONE is to use the options originally there hence essence these options and features should be enhanced not deleted if you break them.

Per I do note you saying scream about stuff and you then make it like anyone that disagrees is wrong you will get no further input from these people as they know you don't listen to their input..

No one plays Master to see all the things you delete because its full of new bugs inserted with great zest and then that code is delete with the same efficient scorched earth methods that along with all other things that are missing are.

I was not going to post further here but I do love warzone and I don’t want to see it a clone of some other game or lose its upgrade or nexus your list of deleting options grows daily.

Soon WE the community will be gone so it wont matter and you will feel hay no complaints I must have done it right.

Concerned for the Game.
Berg

PS: PLease stop this madness deleting code is not enhancing the game.
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby Per » 13 Aug 2015, 13:44

Berg wrote:If it was a group of 50 tanks pursuing to find an enemy base its not silly behaviour.

Are we still talking about the 'single truck' scenario? Because that would either never survive an encounter with 50 tanks, or it would pull off only a couple of tanks for the ride home. Or are we talking about 50 vs 50 tanks battle, where your 50 tanks follow the retreating enemy back home...? In which case I think you'd rather want to control that yourself to avoid kiting.

Berg wrote:If you send one tank on a suicide mission then you lost your tank but you'll have a path to the enemy.

You can still actively send a tank on a suicide mission following another unit, by actively clicking on it. But yes, that is so far the best use case I've heard for 'Pursue'. Basically a way to do early game scouting automatically, I guess.
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby Berg » 14 Aug 2015, 01:10

I really don't know what your asking about per-sue it has, ( had) many uses before you deleted it.
Trying to isolated its one use to suit your desired debate is not how you should be looking at the function anyway.
Just because you think something is no longer used you also delete, its constant removing code that’s put you here in this position of things don’t work how they should.
Like I said to this thread Deleting is not bug fixing.
You can call me a stick in the mud or mister negative but removing the guts from warzone is not enhancing it or improving its a lame way of hiding stuff ups.
You know my thoughts on many other things you wanted to delete and have deleted.
And this is not a rant I'm very calm.
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby KlassKill » 15 May 2016, 07:41

Pursue button was to auto attack a unit
it is like a user pressing the mouse over a unit and tell a unit to attack it but without extra input from the user
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby KlassKill » 15 May 2016, 20:20

Per wrote:You can still actively send a tank on a suicide mission following another unit, by actively clicking on it. But yes, that is so far the best use case I've heard for 'Pursue'. Basically a way to do early game scouting automatically, I guess.

this is what I mean you do not need to click on anything if set to that
you add extra work for people now that it is removed
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby Per » 15 May 2016, 22:54

KlassKill wrote:Pursue button was to auto attack a unit
it is like a user pressing the mouse over a unit and tell a unit to attack it but without extra input from the user

Pursue does a lot more than just 'auto attack', as 'auto attack' is the default behaviour already, unless you actively put a unit on 'hold fire' or 'return fire'.

Pursue would mean that you would follow enemy droids when they retreated out of firing range. I have trouble finding old enough code where 'Pursue' actually worked to see what it would do, but I my guess is that it cheated by reading out the coordinates of the pursued unit out of memory, rather than having any kind of intelligence (go to last seen coordinates, or find an intersection course, etc.).

So to reiterate, again, I would be happy to have a Pursue mode in the game, once it is clear how it should work. The old code simply did not work, and had no clear design, and then there is no point in having it there.
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby KlassKill » 16 May 2016, 02:14

Per wrote:
KlassKill wrote:Pursue button was to auto attack a unit
it is like a user pressing the mouse over a unit and tell a unit to attack it but without extra input from the user

Pursue does a lot more than just 'auto attack', as 'auto attack' is the default behaviour already, unless you actively put a unit on 'hold fire' or 'return fire'.

Pursue would mean that you would follow enemy droids when they retreated out of firing range. I have trouble finding old enough code where 'Pursue' actually worked to see what it would do, but I my guess is that it cheated by reading out the coordinates of the pursued unit out of memory, rather than having any kind of intelligence (go to last seen coordinates, or find an intersection course, etc.).

So to reiterate, again, I would be happy to have a Pursue mode in the game, once it is clear how it should work. The old code simply did not work, and had no clear design, and then there is no point in having it there.

I do not understand the problem
pursue means it should go out and attack the first target it detects and pursue it until death or until the unit is too damaged and not set on do or die
that seems clear right?
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby stiv » 16 May 2016, 06:32

pursue means it should go out and attack the first target it detects

That sounds more like Patrol + Fire At Will, rather than Pursue. Pursue implies some specific target.
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby KlassKill » 16 May 2016, 07:19

stiv wrote:
pursue means it should go out and attack the first target it detects

That sounds more like Patrol + Fire At Will, rather than Pursue. Pursue implies some specific target.

no there are two modes
one is set to automatically attack first target it detects and it will keep attacking that target
the other mode is when user selects a target and it will keep attacking that target
both case they have specific targets
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby stiv » 16 May 2016, 16:38

no there are two modes

And now we are back to Per's complaint that there is no common understanding of what Pursue should do.

In order to code this, we need a comprehensive description of how orders should work. Or at least a set of use cases describing the various scenarios.
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby KlassKill » 16 May 2016, 20:19

that is common understanding and I did give a full description of what needs to be done
one is more micro where user directs actions with mouse and the other is less micro where the AI does things itself
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Re: Petition to reinstate Guard, Persue and Hold orders!

Postby Per » 16 May 2016, 21:15

KlassKill wrote:pursue means it should go out and attack the first target it detects and pursue it until death or until the unit is too damaged and not set on do or die
that seems clear right?

Yes. It may make a return at some point, as part of larger overhaul of the unit order GUI, but this won't make it for 3.2.0.
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