Remove terrain modifier

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Originway
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Remove terrain modifier

Post by Originway » 29 Jan 2013, 23:11

http://developer.wz2100.net/ticket/3916
:shock: :shock: :shock:
we need ways to slow things down like when they are stuck in bog or marsh lands!

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Shadow Wolf TJC
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Re: Remove terrain modifier

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 30 Jan 2013, 09:49

Personally, I do make heavy use of terrain modifiers for Contingency, to the extent where they'd often have a major impact on gameplay. However, I've modified them in ways so as to be easier for players to notice. For example, while I set the majority of the terrain modifiers to have no impact (positive or negative) on engine power for various propulsion types, I've set the Green Mud and Slush tiles to cut the engine powers of most units, including Cyborgs, by half, though hovercraft were not given this penalty. I've also set it so that wheeled, half-tracked, and tracked units gained a +50% engine power bonus on roads, and hovercraft a +50% engine power bonus on water.

However, in order for these terrain modifiers to have as much of an effect on gameplay as they do on Contingency, I had to finagle with the weight system so that most units, including heavy units, would weigh close to what their engines can handle on "normal" terrain without slowing them down.

Edit: If anything needs removing or changing in my opinion, it'd be the various engine multipliers found in propulsiontype.ini. They don't exactly work how you'd expect them to. :?
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aubergine
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Re: Remove terrain modifier

Post by aubergine » 30 Jan 2013, 13:09

Rather than removing terrain modifiers, they should be fixed so they have a more noticeable effect and the design tool GUI updated to make it apparent what the pro's and con's are of different propulsions.

To further justify that, it's important to note that one of the things that draws us to WZ is that it's not a simplistic RTS game. There's a lot of stuff to learn - such as the extensive research tree, which component configurations work most effectively, etc. It's this deep complexity that keeps us coming back for more - there's always something new to learn. If the terrain had noticeable effect on propulsion, that adds to the gameplay and opens up new tactics and strategies.

The one downside of terrain modifiers is that they could pose a massive challenge to AIs, because AI's can't just glance at the map and determine what propulsions will be best. However, this issue could be overcome if the game engine provided a global object that listed each terrain type (as property of the object) with it's value being the number of tiles on the map using that terrain type. The AI could then quickly see if there's lots of water = +2 for hover & VTOL propulsion. Or if there's lots of road = +2 for wheeled, +1 for half tracks, etc....
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Re: Remove terrain modifier

Post by NoQ » 30 Jan 2013, 13:24

Are terrain modifiers taken into account by the current pathfinder? If not, then they don't really make any difference, for hardly anybody will move their armies through the faster way manually (instead of the shorter way automatically).

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Shadow Wolf TJC
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Re: Remove terrain modifier

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 30 Jan 2013, 13:30

aubergine wrote:The one downside of terrain modifiers is that they could pose a massive challenge to AIs, because AI's can't just glance at the map and determine what propulsions will be best. However, this issue could be overcome if the game engine provided a global object that listed each terrain type (as property of the object) with it's value being the number of tiles on the map using that terrain type. The AI could then quickly see if there's lots of water = +2 for hover & VTOL propulsion. Or if there's lots of road = +2 for wheeled, +1 for half tracks, etc....
Alternatively, some map-specific programming could be used to tell AIs how much of a certain terrain is present. This has the advantage of ignoring any terrain that is used as "background decoration", as well as any accessible terrain that lies on the sidelines (such as remote oil derricks that are located away from the main paths between base locations).
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Re: Remove terrain modifier

Post by Emdek » 01 Feb 2013, 09:36

I'm against removing this feature, it should be fixed and there could be added JS rule to decide if such constraints should be enabled or not (maybe even disabling it by default).
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Per
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Re: Remove terrain modifier

Post by Per » 01 Feb 2013, 11:51

NoQ wrote:Are terrain modifiers taken into account by the current pathfinder? If not, then they don't really make any difference, for hardly anybody will move their armies through the faster way manually (instead of the shorter way automatically).
It does not, as I noted in the ticket :)

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Re: Remove terrain modifier

Post by themac » 01 Feb 2013, 12:20

BTW: It looks strange to me that hovercrafts can climb up so easy. Hovercrafts are designed to run on almost flat areas. :)

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Re: Remove terrain modifier

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 01 Feb 2013, 17:22

themac wrote:BTW: It looks strange to me that hovercrafts can climb up so easy. Hovercrafts are designed to run on almost flat areas. :)
Technically, steep slopes can also be flat, like in the sides of a pyramid (the shape, not the ancient man-made structures in Egypt or the Americas mind you).
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Re: Remove terrain modifier

Post by Emdek » 01 Feb 2013, 17:32

Shadow Wolf TJC, I think that he meant flat as also horizontal, without tilt. ;-)
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aubergine
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Re: Remove terrain modifier

Post by aubergine » 01 Feb 2013, 20:57

Yeah, hovercrafts should struggle big time with slopes - the higher the incline, the slower they should go, and for very steep slopes they should need to build up speed before reaching them if they're to have a chance of getting to the top.
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Originway
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Re: Remove terrain modifier

Post by Originway » 08 Feb 2013, 20:22

we won! :D

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Re: Remove terrain modifier

Post by Emdek » 08 Feb 2013, 20:29

Originway wrote:we won! :D
Not fully yet, someone needs to fix it. ;-)
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


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