Iluvalar & Shadow Wolf TJ's *Commander Mods*- Need Play Data

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Iluvalar & Shadow Wolf TJ's *Commander Mods*- Need Play Data

Post by Rman Virgil » 25 Mar 2012, 04:21

.

Version 2 is out - March 31:

DOWNLOAD Version 2:

download/file.php?id=10745

Rman Virgil wrote: Here's the dilemma - what player who otherwise knows how to win is gonna wanna use Commanders unless they have at least a fair chance of winning?
Iluvalar wrote: You got a real good point here XD . That's why here is the V2

Code: Select all

CommandTurret4,Level All,70,200,1000,0,1,1200,GNLCMD1.PIE,TRLCMD1.PIE,FXHBLas.PIE,FXBeam.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,0,2304,2304,100,100,1,1,0,0,8,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2500,0,YES,HEAT,COMMAND,HOMING-DIRECT,ALL ROUNDER,180,90,-30,YES,NO,0,0,YES,1,100,0,0,0
CommandTurret3,Level All,60,200,1000,0,1,700,GNLCMD1.PIE,TRLCMD1.PIE,FXHBLas.PIE,FXBeam.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,0,2048,2048,100,100,1,1,0,0,7,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2500,0,YES,HEAT,COMMAND,HOMING-DIRECT,ALL ROUNDER,180,90,-30,YES,NO,0,0,YES,1,100,0,0,0
CommandTurret2,Level All,50,200,1000,0,1,400,GNLCMD1.PIE,TRLCMD1.PIE,FXHBLas.PIE,FXBeam.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,0,1792,1792,100,100,1,1,0,0,6,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2500,0,YES,HEAT,COMMAND,HOMING-DIRECT,ALL ROUNDER,180,90,-30,YES,NO,0,0,YES,1,100,0,0,0
CommandTurret1,Level All,44,200,1000,0,1,216,GNLCMD1.PIE,TRLCMD1.PIE,FXHBLas.PIE,FXBeam.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,0,1536,1536,100,100,1,1,0,0,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2500,0,YES,HEAT,COMMAND,HOMING-DIRECT,ALL ROUNDER,180,90,-30,YES,NO,0,0,YES,1,100,0,0,0
I expect they will only control tmg viper, that they will only fight with 50% of their maximum unit, that the commander research worth a 50% bonus (just that research). And on top they are now balanced to be fair as soon as the level 2.

With all that put together, I'm pretty sure i'm being optimistic and the balance will favor a bit too much the commanders. they will fall either in the top or the god tier. But not so much so the players that play without will die like flies. The data i'm seeking are the same and should be experimentable with that mod.

thx to test it. I repeat the information lacking :

1- The mean level of commanders in action

2- The proportion of the units it is reasonable to assume in combat (also on a mean basis)

3- What kind of unit we can attach to them (the heavier the better, but what we really have at that point ?)



==========>

What this experimental implementation mod is and how this thread came to be created are explained in the following posts from the Commanders: Original Vision, Crippled Default, Future Dev? thread where they originated.

Iluvalar wrote:Ok so here are my preliminary results :

After running a very complex calculation, it seem to me that the guy that balanced the commander had some skill into that kind of approximation. The stats we have now should not be so bad... However I understand that the commanders are underated right now, so we can try to play with some parameters...

What i suggest for now is to expect medium bodies instead of heavy bodies. We know that the commander multiply the strength of his unit and since it is capped to 6, it is better to build a heavy body group. So the boost is stronger for the same turret price...

If we try to set them to hmg cobra htrack, at level 3 and 2/3 of the units in battle... I obtain : 190$ for 580HP. I join a mod that work both on 2.3 and 3.1 for tests. it also load beggar kanyon when use as a map.

I need data to conitnue :

1) How much units are really in combat ?

2) What level do you commander reach ?

3) What kind of unit you plan to use ?

Download Commander Mod Link:


download/file.php?id=10563


Reasons for creating this dedicated thread and moving Iluvalar's Commander Mod File.
Rman Virgil wrote:.

I can see a dilemma unfolding.

Don't want Iluvalar's Commander Mod work in progress to get lost in this thread - which already looks like it's bound to happen.

I also don't want to discourage other discussions.

Possible solution: Iluvalar what do you think about creating a dedicated thread in the Mod BB to test and report ongoing development results? We can come back to this thread later with final results.

That being agreeable, we can proceed with other proposals here - like your clear as virgin olive oil proposal, Emdek. ;)

But let's be clear here: the ultimate goal of all these discussions and proposals is to get to where Iluvalar has taken us very efficiently ~ working commander mods to test & evaluate.

This is the first practical proposal that can be put in-game so let's do right by it and make it the model of how we are gonna proceed going forward with actual experiments and valuable data harvesting.

Thanks. :)

- Cheers, Rman. :hmm:
.
Last edited by Rman Virgil on 08 May 2012, 00:40, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 27 Mar 2012, 13:42

I just played a game with me and 3 NEXUS AIs vs 4 enemy NEXUS AIs on the map that was included with the mod, with low oil and advanced bases (since I assumed that it needed to be like that), and I decided that the only way that I could win this match was to turtle up on the chokepoint in the center of the map and wait until I could build Howitzers, all while my allies sent their usual human-wave attacks to keep the enemy busy. Because I was focusing on keeping that chokepoint in the middle secured with Hardpoints and Mortar Pits, while keeping up with my research, I couldn't afford to build any units other than Trucks, let alone any commanders to lead them. Once I finally had some Ground Shaker Emplacements built, I decided to go on the offensive, though with a Sensor Tank to put those Howitzer Emplacements to a more offensive use.

However, if you're looking for a match where I actually used Commanders as an important component to my strategy, then I'd have to say that the Back to Basics challenge (which takes place on the 2vs2 High Ground map) that I did a year ago would probably fit in there. Much like with the Beggars' Canyon match, I turtled up the oil at the center of the map using Hardpoints and Mortar Pits to keep my opponent from them, though this time, I waited until I had a massed offensive force to pummel my opponent with (along with a couple Repair Facilities to keep them well-maintained).

This force consisted of mostly Cannons (both Cyborgs and Tanks) and Flamers (mostly Cyborgs), led by 2 or 3 Commanders, and backed up by countless Grenadiers, all set to retreat on Medium Damage. Now normally, Commanders should ideally be placed on as heavy a body as possible, and assigned more powerful tanks so that their effects could be applied more efficiently, though since I was focusing on a more mobile army, and since I was in a bit of a rush at the time, I mounted the Command Turrets on light bodies to save in costs, and assigned mostly Cyborgs to them, building additional Commanders to handle more massive loads of combat units when needed. Back then, I wasn't thinking about taking advantage of their bonuses in experience as much as I was in terms of reducing the amount of micromanagement needed in order to handle these forces. This allowed me to devote more of my time towards macromanaging the entire match.

Personally, I might be inclined to repeat this strategy of leading groups of cheap Cyborgs with cheap, light-bodied Commanders in the future, though much like with the match that I just did on Beggars' Canyon, I'd only want to do this if the situation called for it. Still, while I would like to assign, say, over a hundred units to a number of commanders, I sincerely believe that raising the commanders' unit-assignment limits to such high numbers isn't the answer.

Much like with the recently-addressed issue of countering the act of truck-rushing to secure/deny oil with truck-rushing of your own, I fear that allowing freshly-produced Commanders to control so many units at a time, and to provide them all with those bonuses, would overcentralize the game, forcing players to counter them with Commanders of their own, making setting up these kinds of well-defended chokepoints ineffective at dealing with them. Rather, I believe that raising the number of commanders that players can have to a much higher number than 5, even if it means tweaking the Commanders tab to account for more than 5 commanders, would be a much better solution, without the risk of overcentralizing the game towards them. Heck, I'd even prefer if the commanders weren't changed over greatly increasing or removing the limit on how many units can be assigned to them.
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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Rman Virgil » 28 Mar 2012, 07:35

.

Side by side you can see the changes.

Perhaps a fuller explanation of the reasoning behind all the specific changes would help to better understand what we're looking for here in the way an enhanced gameplay outcome.

Also - it may be of help to spell-out in more detail some more test scenarios.

Code: Select all

Stock:

CommandTurret1,Level 
All,100,100,1000,0,1,999,GNLCMD1.PIE,TRLCMD1.PIE,FXHBLas.PIE,FXBeam.PIE,
FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,0,1536,1536,90,99,1,1,0,0,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,1000,0,
YES,KINETIC,COMMAND,DIRECT,ANTI PERSONNEL,180,90,-30,YES,NO,0,0,YES,1,0,0,0,0

Code: Select all

Mod:

CommandTurret1,Level 
All,190,750,1000,0,1,580,GNLCMD1.PIE,TRLCMD1.PIE,FXHBLas.PIE,FXBeam.PIE,
FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,0,1536,1536,100,100,1,1,0,0,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2500,0,
YES,HEAT,COMMAND,HOMING-DIRECT,ALL ROUNDER,180,90,-30,YES,NO,0,0,YES,1,100,0,0,0
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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 28 Mar 2012, 08:19

From the looks of things, I'm guessing that the Command Turrets in the mod cost $90 more than the stock version, take about 7.5x as much time to build, have 58% as much HP, and have the ability to target both ground and air units. Still, Beggars' Canyon didn't seem like a good enough map to test Commanders out in due to how it's a 4vs4 map, and due to how a single chokepoint in the middle of the map was the only way to reach the opponents by ground. Perhaps a 1vs1 map, like High Ground or Visionary Mountains, would've been a better map to test commanders out on.
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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Rman Virgil » 28 Mar 2012, 08:48

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:From the looks of things, I'm guessing that the Command Turrets in the mod cost $90 more than the stock version, take about 7.5x as much time to build, have 58% as much HP, and have the ability to target both ground and air units. Still, Beggars' Canyon didn't seem like a good enough map to test Commanders out in due to how it's a 4vs4 map, and due to how a single chokepoint in the middle of the map was the only way to reach the opponents by ground. Perhaps a 1vs1 map, like High Ground or Visionary Mountains, would've been a better map to test commanders out on.
Intuitively I'm leaning towards your suggestion of a 1 vs 1 map for this testing.

Let's see how Iluvalar weighs-in on that.

I could read the changes but what I'm not really clear on is the rationale for each & how it all hangs together.

I'm trying to find the words to express my uncertainty.

It strikes me as working within a strict formulaic box and pushing that envelope in conservative increments.

I'm just wondering if in testing those type subtleties it would help to be more precise in setting up the contest between opposing forces?

Like the specific make-up of a Commander combat group versus a specific opposition.

Basically I'm talking about setting up a good controlled experiment on this front end.

Later, taking the end results of those controlled experiments and throwing it into an uncontrolled free for all as the final stress test to see if it still holds up. Does that even make sense?

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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 28 Mar 2012, 09:05

Would testing Commanders both in the current build and on modded builds help?

Personally, playing against an AI isn't exactly advised if you're wanting a more controlled battle due to how... uncooperative they can be, though sometimes, that's the only choice if you're unable to play online at any given time. :?

By the way, I also noticed that the commanders in the mod have perfect accuracy (as compared to the stock version's almost perfect accuracy) and homing projectiles.
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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Rman Virgil » 28 Mar 2012, 15:42

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:Would testing Commanders both in the current build and on modded builds help?

Personally, playing against an AI isn't exactly advised if you're wanting a more controlled battle due to how... uncooperative they can be, though sometimes, that's the only choice if you're unable to play online at any given time. :?

By the way, I also noticed that the commanders in the mod have perfect accuracy (as compared to the stock version's almost perfect accuracy) and homing projectiles.
Ultimately any changes have to be battle tested for viability in MP.

At this initial stage I think SKi in Debug mode presents a certain controlled flexibility for setting up specific scenarios for experimentation.

I also think we need a further breakdown in our goals.

To wit -

1.) Single Commander combat group effectiveness.

2.) Multiple Commander combat groups coordinated in complex maneuvers which amount to multiple vector & velocity deployments.

#1 is in need of an organizing principle which I will attend, define and expand upon in my very next post.

#2 will necessitate UI /AI changes which I already presented an example of in the aggregated Commander thread with the mock-up of the re-tooled Mini-Map / Command UI. ( SEE: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=9119&p=99321#p99321 )

I'll be back shortly to address #1 at length.

.
Last edited by Rman Virgil on 28 Mar 2012, 16:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Rman Virgil » 28 Mar 2012, 16:10

.

I get that WZ is not (nor should it be remade into) a combat simulation. I also believe any GPMs that are pronounced arcade (like Space Invaders) should be re-examined for re-tooling. WZ falls somewhere between the extremes of that continuum: arcade to simulation. It is within that broad guideline that we approach these proposed modifications.

The organizing principle I'd like to introduce here in dealing with individual commander combat group effectiveness is Combined Arms.

So let me begin by defining the term.


The goal of combined arms is to achieve battle field synergies where in the force components are brought together such that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. THIS becomes part of the defining metric for individual Commander effectiveness.
At a minimum, however, this term includes at least three related elements:

1. The combined arms concept is the basic idea (as expressed above) that different arms and weapon systems must be used in concert to maximize the survival and combat effectiveness of each other.

2. Combined arms organization, at whatever level, brings these different arms and weapon systems together for combat.

3. Combined arms tactics and operations are the actual roles performed and techniques applied by these different arms and weapons in supporting each other once they have been organized into their integrated teams.
(From: Jonathan M. House, Toward Combined Arms Warfare: A Survey of 20th Century Tactics, Doctrine, and Organization (Leavenworth: U.S. Army Command and General Staff College, 1984), 4-5.)

Where this applies right off the top is in just what is the optimal number of units that can be assigned a Rookie Commander to have any chance of achieving a baseline Combined Arms synergy?

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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Iluvalar » 28 Mar 2012, 17:17

Roman you have the data for base.wz . Which is not what we play. Here is mp.wz :

Code: Select all

CommandTurret1,Level All,250,500,1000,0,1,1000,GNLCMD1.PIE,TRLCMD1.PIE,FXHBLas.PIE,FXBeam.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE
,FXSFlms.PIE,0,1536,1536,100,100,1,1,0,0,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2500,0,YES,HEAT,COMMAND,HOMING-DIRECT,ALL ROUNDER,180,90,-30,YES,NO,0,0,YES,1,100,0,0,0
What is in this test:
stat wise :
COST : 250 => 190
HP : 1000 => 580
conceptually wise :
Python medium => Cobra HMG.

That should make the commander just slightly OP when using full heavy bodies, but should make it usable in lighter body situation.

2 Shadow Wolf TJC :
That's not a good test, I need commanders deployed as soon as you have the tech (or cobra ^^).
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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 28 Mar 2012, 17:32

When I 1st tried to play through Beggars' Canyon, I did try to deploy Commanders at 1st, alongside Cobra Cannon Tanks, though they didn't seem to work out that well. Again, I blame the situation that developed between the map and the 7 computer players (4 opponents and 3 allies, all NEXUS) involved in the match for this.

Perhaps we should test this mod over a wider variety of maps instead of just Beggars' Canyon, to obtain a better idea on what should be done about them.
CommanderTest.wz
This is Iluvalar's Commander Test mod, only remade into a generic mod for usage over multiple maps.
(6.03 KiB) Downloaded 148 times
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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Rman Virgil » 28 Mar 2012, 18:11

Iluvalar wrote:Roman you have the data for base.wz . Which is not what we play. Here is mp.wz :

Code: Select all

CommandTurret1,Level All,250,500,1000,0,1,1000,GNLCMD1.PIE,TRLCMD1.PIE,FXHBLas.PIE,FXBeam.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE,FXSFlms.PIE
,FXSFlms.PIE,0,1536,1536,100,100,1,1,0,0,4,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,2500,0,YES,HEAT,COMMAND,HOMING-DIRECT,ALL ROUNDER,180,90,-30,YES,NO,0,0,YES,1,100,0,0,0
What is in this test:
stat wise :
COST : 250 => 190
HP : 1000 => 580
conceptually wise :
Python medium => Cobra HMG.

That should make the commander just slightly OP when using full heavy bodies, but should make it usable in lighter body situation.

.........

Thanks for clarifying... & the correction... sorry bout that error.

Btw, the nick is Rman & NOT Roman... ;)
.
Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:When I 1st tried to play through Beggars' Canyon, I did try to deploy Commanders at 1st, alongside Cobra Cannon Tanks, though they didn't seem to work out that well. Again, I blame the situation that developed between the map and the 7 computer players (4 opponents and 3 allies, all NEXUS) involved in the match for this.

Perhaps we should test this mod over a wider variety of maps instead of just Beggars' Canyon, to obtain a better idea on what should be done about them.
CommanderTest.wz
Agree. Thanks for making the mod non map specific. :)

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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Iluvalar » 28 Mar 2012, 18:29

omg sorry Rman, now you know why i make so much spelling mistakes. I learned to read diagonally since pre-school. Never paid attention to actual letters in the words lol.

Every map-mod can be loaded as mod only. There was no need to change that file.
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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Cyp » 28 Mar 2012, 18:55

Iluvalar wrote:omg sorry Rman, now you know why i make so much spelling mistakes. I learned to read diagonally since pre-school. Never paid attention to actual letters in the words lol.

...
Tihnk it's a wlel-kwnon fcat taht popele ulalusy can raed fsat, wehn the frsit and lsat ltretes are crecort, eevn if the rset are clpmeoelty mxeid.

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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by cybersphinx » 28 Mar 2012, 19:33

Cyp wrote:Tihnk it's a wlel-kwnon fcat taht popele ulalusy can raed fsat, wehn the frsit and lsat ltretes are crecort, eevn if the rset are clpmeoelty mxeid.
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Re: Iluvalar's *Commander Mod WIP* - Need Data

Post by Rman Virgil » 28 Mar 2012, 23:39

.
Iluvalar wrote:omg sorry Rman, now you know why i make so much spelling mistakes. I learned to read diagonally since pre-school. Never paid attention to actual letters in the words lol.
That's interesting how you learned how to read. Reminds me of some speed reading techniques.

No biggie with the miss-spelling. It did remind me of one the great contributors to the game, Troman, who made up his nick by putting a "T" in front of his RL name "Roman". A true WZ godfather he was. :)

I look forward to getting into some serious, structured, testing of this mod when I get back home this Sat. The kind of testing in short supply mainly because the combination skill-set and temperment is rare. Especially the temperment aspect which requires you be able to step in and out of a pure gamer for fun mind-set, and do so at will, to put on the hat of a scientist - then back again to fun loving gamer - over & over till the jobs done! A challenge that takes some work to achieve proficiency at and why pro testers get paid good $$. :hmm:

I also like the subtlety of your incremental approach to making changes which is tipping your hat to WZ being akin a complex system dynamic prone to emergent behaviour which cannot be predicted by a priori theorizing. :3

Every map-mod can be loaded as mod only. There was no need to change that file.
Didn't think of that. Good to know.
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