Cliff Face quandary was Re: just a quick question...

[Buginator]

I have no problem running Trunk and I do like the New Terrain Renderer - but for one thing. Don't like how Cliff Face comes through.

Heh, looks like i've been just thinking the same thing (:

Thought it best to split this to a new thread

[Rman Virgil]

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I have no problem running Trunk and I do like the New Terrain Renderer - but for one thing. Don't like how Cliff Face comes through.

Heh, looks like i've been just thinking the same thing (:

Ahh, yes, we are indeed.

Sadly, I do not think there will be a quick or easy solution.

It will be very challenging to get even just a little closer to the control map makers have at present with WYSIWYG with Cliff-Face work out of the Map Editor and into the game (old terrain renderer).

How I do my Cliff-Face variety now is through a combination of what I call Level-Stacking, Vertex-Geometry Deforming & Rotation-Orientation and NONE of that do you have control over as represented in the way the New Terrain Renderer works.

The way I am understanding it all, at this time, is that this will amount to a control "trade-off" for map makers for a long time to come when it comes to creating cliff-face / rock-formation visual variety - you really won't be able to.... not like at present.

In short - how the New Terrain Renderer works to achieve its smooth seamless textures is by homogenizing from a META level whatever heterogeneous cliff-face effects you may be doing on a local-level. Not clear on how it could be modified to reflect heterogeneous cliff-face effects in game.

- Regards, RV
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[Buginator]

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The way I am understanding it all, at this time, is that this will amount to a control "trade-off" for map makers for a long time to come when it comes to creating cliff-face / rock-formation visual variety - you really won't be able to.... not like at present.

In short - how the New Terrain Renderer works to achieve its smooth seamless textures is by homogenizing from a META level whatever heterogeneous cliff-face effects you may be doing on a local-level. Not clear on how it could be modified to reflect heterogeneous cliff-face effects in game.

- Regards, RV
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Hmm, anyone got time to create a custom map that can be used as a testbed ? Just make a 2P map with all the issues involved, and I'll see what I can do. If possible make as many cases as you guys can think of that clearly shows the issues.
(I mean, make different widths (x tiles big and so on) of the valley / cliffs, so we can see what the changes will do)

[Rman Virgil]

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The way I am understanding it all, at this time, is that this will amount to a control "trade-off" for map makers for a long time to come when it comes to creating cliff-face / rock-formation visual variety - you really won't be able to.... not like at present.

In short - how the New Terrain Renderer works to achieve its smooth seamless textures is by homogenizing from a META level whatever heterogeneous cliff-face effects you may be doing on a local-level. Not clear on how it could be modified to reflect heterogeneous cliff-face effects in game.

- Regards, RV
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Hmm, anyone got time to create a custom map that can be used as a testbed ? Just make a 2P map with all the issues involved, and I'll see what I can do. If possible make as many cases as you guys can think of that clearly shows the issues.

(I mean, make different widths (x tiles big and so on) of the valley / cliffs, so we can see what the changes will do)

I can do it when I get back home in about 10 days if someone else doesn't get to it before then.

Hao is a good map maker and knows well the practical issues involved here and he may come up with a good illustration of it as well. Not trying to volunteer you Hao, really. Just know your ability and insights into this matter. Also know your time could be tied-up in other commitments too.

- Regards, RV

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[Rman Virgil]

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Bug: A promising solution to these issues is evolving in the last 7 posts of your thread here, from Oct 3 forward, vis-a-vis Cliff Decals and changes to the blending between passable and impassable textures (aka, the "demarcation" at a glance I mentioned) :

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6101&p=71059#p71059

That of course would be the answer on the in-game side.

Still the matter of WYSIWYG out of flaME such that what you make in flaME of cliff face / rock formations is an accurate representation of what your Cliff Face will look like with the proposed changes to the New Terrain Renderer.

It's good that you advised Flail 13 to hold off on any more changes for the moment so that the above evolving in-game solution can be brought to term first - then changes to effect WYSIWYG out of flaME to match so that it is not a crap-shoot for cliff-making results out of the editor and into the v.3.0 game.

While I'm fairly certain 2 decals will suffice to make for the new needed change - I am not so sure 2 will be enough to create cliff-formations that are not bland in their obvious looking the same. In other words, may need more than 2 to create a variety of visual distinctions.

Regards, RV
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[Rman Virgil]

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Side Bar: My apology Lav for veering-off on this tangent (no matter its critical importance to us map-makers, as well gamers total immersion experience) from the prime subject of this thread - making the Big Transport available to work and play with in MP & Ski.

This matter of Cliff-Face changes in v.3.0 and it's concomitant relationship to map-making in flaME is best carried forward in the aforementioned thread:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6101&p=71059#p71059

That is, unless a dedicated, very specifically titled, thread is made. Which might not be a bad idea as the specificity of this discussion (problems and solutions) is not apparent from the title Vote on the new textures!

Perhaps something along the lines of -

Enhancing Cliff Render in v.3.0 along with WYSIWYG out of flaME.

Regards, RV

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[MaNGusT]

Your problem guys is that you use cliff texture on a terrain tiles. That is why it shows too strange on the new engine. We all know what textures are for what, just keep these "rules" in mind when you make your maps.
I don't see these problems in original maps. so...

[Rman Virgil]

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Your problem guys is that you use cliff texture on a terrain tiles. That is why it shows too strange on the new engine. We all know what textures are for what, just keep these "rules" in mind when you make your maps.

I don't see these problems in original maps. so...

Do you mean I should make Cliff as in Pumpkin's Little Egypt like so:




Instead of like any of the following (small sample - could pick dozens more):



















I think that the only way I could regress my map artistry to slavishly copy a boring style (assuming that is the implication & I could be mistaken in that interpretation, I admit) would be to volunteer for a pre-frontal lobotomy.

- Regards, RV

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[MaNGusT]

Do you mean I should make Cliff as in Pumpkin's Little Egypt like so:

I mean you should make cliff as pumpkin made them(especially in campaign) - use their style. use angle cliff texture only on angles, ... etc.
Mountains terrain type has 2 kind of cliff textures - cliff and snowcliff. so you can use them both if you prefer my terrain textures. gerard's textures don't support snowcliff(you still can you use them but will see only regular cliff texture).

P.S. do you have those problems with the new engine in your maps that hao has?

[Rman Virgil]

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Do you mean I should make Cliff as in Pumpkin's Little Egypt like so:

I mean you should make cliff as pumpkin made them (especially in campaign) - use their style. use angle cliff texture only on angles, ... etc.

I like my style better than Pumpkin's. Plus converting my maps to Pumpkin's style would be a horribly torturous waste of time with the net result being a very unsatisfying compromise - for me.

Mountains terrain type has 2 kind of cliff textures - cliff and snow cliff. so you can use them both if you prefer my terrain textures. gerard's textures don't support snow cliff (you still can you use them but will see only regular cliff texture).

I like your textures better than Gerard's.

P.S. do you have those problems with the new engine in your maps that hao has?

Yup.... even worse.

However, I don't mind that in sticking to my map making style the results are only optimal for running them in v.2.2.x. While I like the New Terrain Renderer & your Textures, I still like the old renderer and textures, especially for the much greater range of rock-cliff formation effects I can create.

My only dilemma with that last course right now is that Big Transport MP mod support will only be for v.3.0 - but since v.3.0 code base will be that of v.2.2.x I can always modify v.2.2.x to support the Big Transport and use that in the creation of my new work going forward that makes heavy use of my rock-formation / cliff making style.

I will also experiment with Diorama's ability to generate maps for the New Renderer / Textures and majorly modify those maps to suit my aesthetic sensibilities and tightly linked Game Play design imperatives and see how that works out.

I would also like to see what comes of the Cliff Decals discussion and what future support flaME might incorporate for making maps for the New Terrain Renderer (with the New Textures) such that working in flaME space IS WYSIWYG in v.3.0.

'Course, in the end, if I work on maps for Dylan Dog's brand new WZ Campaign I may have to bite the bullet and go back to Pumpkin's style of cliff-facing. Which wouldn't be such a big deal as the Game Play in Campaign is mainly evoked through scripting were as in my MP-Ski mapping one of the reasons I use Cliff-Face so much (and why I was lead to develop my style of intense variety in rock formation visuals) is that I can invoke a whole slew of dynamic Game Play that is campaign-like through sheer mapping (without scripting) and cliff-facing is a major component to that technique.

Thank you MaNGusT for your feedback (and fine art work contributions as well).

- Regards, RV

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[cybersphinx]

IIRC, with the old terrain you can set both texture and terrain type per tile independently, while the new terrain determines texture by terrain type. Not sure if there's a benefit of using only one, maybe it could be changed to use the texture instead.

[MaNGusT]

How the new terrain engine works:
1)it reads a tile - ie this tile

tile-45.png (3.81 KiB) Viewed 7811 times

2)determines from config what textures it has (by splitting the tile on 4 zones). our tile has:
cliff - cliff
red - cliff

3)renders needed new textures and blends its edges between "zones".


so...in 2.3.x you can use whatever style you want on your maps but with the new renderer it will look OK only with the standard style.

[Rman Virgil]

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Wonder how Cliff-face done as 3D Feature Models would look in v.3.0.





For comparison - one can dream.... just a wee bit (done in Quad Software's "Grome" for Torque):



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[cumandgetit]

mado rj. that is cante ethanhan owoglake but here it is yutakunisni every where. wicohan otehike ? for what ? mitakuye oyasin yes but come on. no ?

[Rman Virgil]

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mado rj. that is cante ethanhan owoglake but here it is yutakunisni every where. wicohan otehike ? for what ? mitakuye oyasin yes but come on. no ?

Hau heyoka. Lila pilamayaye. Ha, niye woglake wowicake. Iyokisice na igluwahpanica iyecetu mahe tuya egna lena hecekcel wasicula ekta.

Hanhon waka wanagiyata, hanhon nagi, hanhon yuoniha - enana tahiyuya. Miye hca ekta iyaya na sni gli. Miye hca ekta kage ecel apetu ki le. Le tawaci un ki wowicake, cante ethanhan owoglake, wicohan otehike.

Mitakuye oyasin mitawa nisukala ki - Rman

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