Bodies - Meshing

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Olrox
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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Olrox » 24 Sep 2009, 02:55

As far as I know, the game units are called Droids. Each droid is composed by a certain number of PIE models. Those, in a vehicle for instance, represent a bit more than the usual components we've got into the game: There is a file for the propulsion, a file for the body and 2 files for the weapons and some sensors.

Those 2 parts are the gun and the turret: The turret only rotates around a pivot point fixed at 0,0,0 I think. The gun is initially positioned using the same reference point (0,0,0, again, I think) as the turret, and at any other time it rotates along with the turret. Recoil animation is automatically made by the game engine, so the only thing we need to really care for is the initial positioning of the turret and gun, so the pivot point is correctly positioned.

This is the most important things I've found out looking at the game files, and at Dancing Moogle's (outdated) art modding guide. Now, I'd be very stupid if I didn't post a link, wouldn't I? xD
Take a look at it HERE

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Zarel
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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Zarel » 24 Sep 2009, 08:56

Olrox wrote:Those 2 parts are the gun and the turret: The turret only rotates around a pivot point fixed at 0,0,0 I think. The gun is initially positioned using the same reference point (0,0,0, again, I think) as the turret, and at any other time it rotates along with the turret. Recoil animation is automatically made by the game engine, so the only thing we need to really care for is the initial positioning of the turret and gun, so the pivot point is correctly positioned.
This is only true for weapons, by the way. As far as I know, systems like trucks, sensors, and repair turrets are one model. (Command Turret, however, is considered a weapon; I'm not entirely sure how its model works.)

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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by MaNGusT » 24 Sep 2009, 12:32

Avestron wrote: I was under the impression that a unit is made up of 3 blender files proximated to each other (propulsion, body, turret). Am I completely mistaken here?
Units are made up of 3 Pie files proximated to each other. ;) Blender is editor only, for me it's a converter.(from 3ds to pie)

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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Kacen » 24 Sep 2009, 12:43

I agree with Avestron.

Problem is I can't think of a way to make every body set have it's useful niche. I mean...

All in all, in practice, Project and especially Collective bodies become unused late game.

And once you get Nexus that's all you use.

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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Avestron » 24 Sep 2009, 15:08

I'm going to try again


FACTION

PROJECT
========

The Project's chassis is practical, bulky, durable, and the most cost-effective of the factions. It lacks outstanding features but if its good value for money, who cares, right? ^_~

Code: Select all

BODY NAME     COST         HIT POINTS    WEIGHT        ENGINE POWER   ANTI-KINETIC   ANTI-THERMAL
=================================================================================================
VIPER         X+           OO+           XX+           OO             OO             OO
COBRA         XXX+         OOOO+         XXXXO         OOOO           OOOO           OOOO
PYTHON        XXXXO+       OOOOXO+       XXXXOXX+      OOOOXO         OOOOXO         OOOOXO
SERPANT       XXXXOXX+     OOOOXOOO+     XXXXOXXXXO    OOOOXOOO       OOOOXOOO       OOOOXOOO
              SPECIALITY   SPECIALITY    HANDICAP
NEW PARADIGM
==============

The New Paradigm's chassis is lighter, compact, and the fastest of the factions. It lacks in durability but if it can get out of trouble fast, who cares, right? ^_~

Code: Select all

BODY NAME     COST         HIT POINTS    WEIGHT        ENGINE POWER   ANTI-KINETIC   ANTI-THERMAL
=================================================================================================
ANT           XX           O+            X+            OO+            O+             OOO
WASP          XXXX         OOO+          XXX+          OOOO+          OOO+           OOOOX
BUMBLER       XXXXOX       OOOOX+        XXXXO+        OOOOXO+        OOOOX+         OOOOXOO
HORNET        XXXXOXXX     OOOOXOO+      XXXXOXX+      OOOOXOOO+      OOOOXOO+       OOOOXOOOO
                           HANDICAP      SPECIALITY    SPECIALITY     HANDICAP       S-SPECIALITY
THE COLLECTIVE
===============

The Collective's chassis is sturdy, bulky, durable, with the heaviest armour of the factions. The power plant is somewhat lacking but if you can out-slug your opposition, who cares, right? ^_~

Code: Select all

BODY NAME     COST         HIT POINTS    WEIGHT        ENGINE POWER   ANTI-KINETIC   ANTI-THERMAL
=================================================================================================
LEOPARD       XX           OO+           XXX           O+             OOO            O+
PANTHER       XXXX         OOOO+         XXXXOX        OOO+           OOOOX          OOO+
TIGER         XXXXOX       OOOOXO+       XXXXOXXXX     OOOOX+         OOOOXOO        OOOOX+
LION          XXXXOXXX     OOOOXOOO+     XXXXOXXXXOXX  OOOOXOO+       OOOOXOOOO      OOOOXOO+
                           SPECIALITY    S-HANDICAP    HANDICAP       S-SPECIALITY   HANDICAP
NEXUS
======

NEXUS's chassis is dangerous, and the most performance-orientated of the factions. It may be more expensive to produce but if its feared on the battlefield, who cares, right? ^_~

Code: Select all

BODY NAME     COST         HIT POINTS    WEIGHT        ENGINE POWER   ANTI-KINETIC   ANTI-THERMAL
=================================================================================================
THREAT        XX+          OO            XX            OO+            OO+            OO+
AGGRESSION    XXXX+        OOOO          XXXX          OOOO+          OOOO+          OOOO+
MENACE        XXXXOX+      OOOOXO        XXXXOX        OOOOXO+        OOOOXO+        OOOOXO+
MALIGNANCE    XXXXOXXX+    OOOOXOOO      XXXXOXXX      OOOOXOOO+      OOOOXOOO+      OOOOXOOO+
              HANDICAP                                 SPECIALITY     SPECIALITY     SPECIALITY
I do feel that this is a large step closer to homogenous factions, which needn't negatively affect the campaign tech tree, being unique in its own right. ^_^

The key is to have factions fill in niches where having access to other body types is desirable but not strictly necessary
Last edited by Avestron on 24 Sep 2009, 16:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Kacen » 24 Sep 2009, 15:24

I have no issue with adding new super heavy bodies for each faction, but changing the names for the New Paradigm and Nexus existing bodies? No. Don't fix what ain't broken.

New Paradigm should get everything you said and a thermal armor bonus methinks, Project should support the most weight and be a medium in between the extremes, Collective should be the most armored but slowest and have strong kinetic armor (and perhaps relatively weak thermal armor) and Nexus should...well.

It's hard to find where to balance Nexus.

I typically dislike it when the only balancing factor of something is cost/build time.

Because honestly, let's be fair, how many times has a game gone on long enough where resources no longer become an issue? In that situation mass producing Nexus bodied units is not a problem and just the way to go.

Ugh it's literally a pain trying to think of HOW to balance Nexus bodies.

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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Avestron » 24 Sep 2009, 16:04

Kacen wrote:I have no issue with adding new super heavy bodies for each faction, but changing the names for the New Paradigm and Nexus existing bodies? No. Don't fix what ain't broken.
I'm not necessarily 'fixing' when I insert name suggestions ^_^ The thing is that the New Paradigm exhibits a discontinuity in its body names, unlike the Project and Collective. At the very least I think the light body 'bug' should get replaced by 'ant' or 'mosquito'.

As for Nexus, was messing around with names there to make them more menacing. ;c) 'Annihalation' is an alternative superheavy name (with 'Decimation' subtly inserted as a suggested replacement for 'Vengeance').

- - - - -

On bodies balance:

I've already indicated that New Paradigm and Collective would be masters of anti-thermal and anti-kinetic armour categories respectively. I've also made Collective engine power to weight ratio the lowest of the lot.

The Project body would be one of the heavier body types (though should probably be less penalized than suggested above (will adjust)). It can really only be expected to win some fights against New Paradigm in a one-on-one fight, all other things being equal. Collective and NEXUS bodies would generally trump Project. However Project bodies are cheaper to manufacture (the body design is less complex) and so there is good potential for a quantity versus quality dynamic play.

The New Paradigm would feature both a lighter body 'and' a more powerful engine. The New Paradigm faction enjoys the fastest, or best equipped, aircraft of the factions. They have a great chassis for hit and run tactics but the aluminium composites shielding the body are somewhat lacking - they can and do suffer serious kinetic damage far too quickly, although the anti-thermal shielding is unmatched.

The Collective would post a veritable occupying force. The liberal employment of titanium alloys have provided them with a fortresses on wheels. They are not there to retreat - they smash all who oppose. This philosophy has resulted in extremely heavy chassis with power plants only reasonably sufficient for the task at hand. Its really too bad that titanium is such a conductor - otherwise they'd have little to fear from any faction in a tank war. Unmatched anti-kinetic shielding - better hitpoints but very slow speed

NEXUS simply is able to commit to most roles better than most but not better than all. They would be great all-rounders but Project is more cost effective. They would be great sluggers but steer clear of the Collective. They are fast but not as fast as the New Paradigm. Nexus has the technology but their bodies are an expression of quality over quantity, the min-maxing of all parameters and the mitigation of any and all signs of weakness. The only "weaknesses" of the Nexus chassis are relative to the focal points of other bodies - it is the whole that counts.

- - -

The fun part shall be looking towards the tech trees and deciding specialities of the factions.
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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Kacen » 24 Sep 2009, 18:42

Avestron wrote: I'm not necessarily 'fixing' when I insert name suggestions ^_^ The thing is that the New Paradigm exhibits a discontinuity in its body names, unlike the Project and Collective. At the very least I think the light body 'bug' should get replaced by 'ant' or 'mosquito'.

As for Nexus, was messing around with names there to make them more menacing. ;c) 'Annihalation' is an alternative superheavy name (with 'Decimation' subtly inserted as a suggested replacement for 'Vengeance').
No, no changing the names. Please. Bumbler is godawful terrible.

And Vengeance is awesome, keep those the same, for old time's sake. No changing body names, period.

Otherwise the only issue I have is still NEXUS.

What reasonable advantage would Project have over NEXUS? The way I see it you've balanced it out to a point but it seems NEXUS will replace Project as just a "better" Project that costs more; both being "middleground" just NEXUS being "higher".

And like I said before, just making the NEXUS bodies cost more is not a good way of balancing. Just making Project cheaper to produce isn't going to change that fact. You're suggestions in balance regards are better than what we currently have but still the same issue shall exist but specifically for the Project.

As of now, all bodies are cheaper than NEXUS, but Nexus is in every way better than all other bodies. This will make it better for Collective and New Paradigm but leave Project in the dust.

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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by whippersnapper » 24 Sep 2009, 19:25

Kacen wrote: Bumbler is godawful terrible.
It's one of Stephen King's more popular creature creations Oy - a cross between a raccoon and a dog - in his magnum opus series "The Dark Tower". I'd be laughing all the way to the bank reading that if i was King. Heck, I'm guffawing anyway being reminded of the Bard's "Taming of the Shrew", esp when looking at that avatar. lol ;)

Also - if you've ever seen wild dogs or raccoons in "combat" - a critter that combined both would be hella formidible to tangle with..... plus, I like the artist renders of King's "Oy" bumbler creature.
Avestron wrote:
The key is to have factions fill in niches where having access to other body types is desirable but not strictly necessary
I take that as a powerful insight that when implemented would lead to a richer game play experience. :D

And, btw, I think "Bumbler" is cool. I also liked that "Tumbler" from the last sequence of "Dark Knight" movies.

- whip :ninja:
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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Avestron » 24 Sep 2009, 22:50

OMG Whipper brought tears to my eyes laughing. xD Partially Kacen's fault too - Loved the contrast. :D

Now... ^_^

Kacen - OK I get it that you're horribly offended by my suggested name changes. :cP Like I said before they aren't meant to be taken as part and parcel with the rest of my thoughts here. Peace. :)

Though I will say that I thought Bumbler sounds better than 'Bumble Bee' or 'Bee' ;) It was part of an effort to make the whole name grouping homogeneous to that particular family of bugs (and ants are relatives to wasps and bees). sorry Whipper - any relation to King is completely coincidental. :P

The advantage of Project versus Nexus? Numbers and very little else. It would be a match between the discount bodies and the premium bodies. You have already mentioned that you do not like costs used as a means of balancing but the truth is that a superior body 'needs' to be more expensive. The ability to pitch 9 Project bodies against 7 NEXUS bodies on around the same budget and around the same production time should be the Project's main advantage.

You argue that this would leave the Project in the dust. If the Project is left with nothing more than a cheaper less effective body then you would be right. However I do not make these suggestions without acknowledging that other changes will become necessary to provide unique character. I guess I'll need to expand upon this in the next post.
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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Olrox » 25 Sep 2009, 00:43

I'll play the annoying guy here by saying that the topic seems more like an artistical topic rather than a modding proposal itself (even though it is into the "Mapping/Modding board"). I mean, the title itself says pretty much what it should be all about: meshing. Modelling, I would rather say, but nevermind.

Kacen said somewhere (I'll not search for it just to quote exactly) "No, don't fix what isn't broken."

Who the hell is trying to fix anything here? :stressed: Aww, this is definetely the kind of work the devs do, to balance the game and make it better. I say again, better, that's their objective.

Mods are modifications, which modify. Modifying includes (actually, it's all about) changing things from the original.

If anyone wants to hire me to do exactly what you want, however, I'm available from 22:00-02:00 GMT, and I require a payment of 20,00 american dolars per hour. :cool:

That's all right now, I'll make those textures for the upgraded truck, and after that I'll come back with some proper models, if I've got the time.

Regards, Olrox

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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Kacen » 25 Sep 2009, 09:30

Okay I'm too lazy to quote.

When I said "don't fix what ain't broken" I was specifically referring to the names.

Really, I'm too used to them, keep the Mantis the Mantis. =( It's one of my favorite bodies.

Collective needs an overhaul though. They just ain't cost effective. A Mantis can pretty much replace the Leopard and Panther and the Tiger is has terrible weight/engine ratio; while it's more armored than anything else until NEXUS, for some reason, in practice, I find it more resourceful to use Mantis bodied units instead until I research NEXUS than to churn out main battle tanks with Tiger bodies. They're just too slow and unresponsive.

Overall I have no issue with Avestron's balance changes for New Paradigm and Collective. It'll make Collective more useful and make sure everyone has more of a niche` than before. Currently NEXUS is better in every way than all other bodies, just more expensive. But like I previously stated, at a certain point for many players, and hell, from the get go in certain maps with lots of oil, resources are not an issue. So the lower cost advantage of non-NEXUS bodies is negated at that point. Also honestly any "balance" that's eliminated once a unit is built just isn't good balance in my eyes. I want them to have strengths and weakness on the battlefield as well, so no body type is better in every way.

So to reiterate, I'm okay with his suggestions for Collective having the best kinetic and HP whilst being slow, and the New Paradigm having the best thermal, engines, and being the most lightweight, but the old problem still persists just instead of NEXUS being in every way better than all other bodies it's NEXUS being in every way better than Project. In practice with your suggestions Project will just be cheaper NEXUS bodies. Both NEXUS and Project will be the middle ground between New Paradigm and Collective in stats but NEXUS will just be better.

I will admit though that thinking of some advantage for Project bodies as a whole so they aren't completely outclassed by NEXUS will be difficult.

I remember, though, that in the past when I used to mod Warzone the imbalance that arrises once you get NEXUS irked me so what I did was made all NEXUS bodies lighter than all others.

This meant they had the worst weight support. (Though thinking about it now I think it would be an issue in Campaign since all NEXUS uses in hover, which has the poorest weight support of all Propulsions) In that case the bodies with the best weight support would be Collective followed by Project...I think the Project's Python should have superior weight support to all other units, it looks the type, it's flat and stable. It's the only body where almost no turret looks lame on top; nearly everything fits properly. I know this is going by appearance but weight support for turrets can be reflected in how the body is shaped I would think.

I'm opposed to the redesign of the New Paradigm bodies, Project, an NEXUS, but I'm not as opposed to the re-design of the Collective bodies; they're ugly. The Tiger is ugly as all hell, although it's mostly the texture. The Panther is...well, to be fair, it looks good with treads or half-tracks but on wheels it looks eh and with hover or VTOL it's gag-inducing. It looks ridiculous on a hover body (due to it's odd \___/ shape it just loops slapped on), and for a VTOL it...is just the opposite of what you'd expect of an aircraft. The Leopard is the only Collective body that looks okay, ironically stat-wise it's currently completely outclassed in EVERY possible way by the Scorpion, even in cost. It just shows in practice New Paradigm bodies are the most cost-effective and whatever tech that faction uses for their bodies is probably the best.

To be fair though there are a lot of bodies that look kinda... "slapped on" when attached to hover. Python, Mantis, Bug, Cobra, and Retaliation don't look too good on it ether. The Tiger, Leopard, and Wyvern look "eh", the Viper looks fairly good, but the Retribution, Scorpion, and, ironically, the Dragon look the best. They just fit well.

I'd think the hypothetical super heavy New Paradigm body, with the stats as they are, would outclass a lot of bodies.

I do actually like Olrox's new model for the Tiger, and I wouldn't be opposed to replacing it with that. Asymmetry would work well for Collective.

Overall though we need to think of a way to make the Project have some advantage no other faction has.

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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Avestron » 25 Sep 2009, 13:13

I have a liking for all the factions. ^_~ My main chagrin stems from the lack of homogenity of these groups. All players are effectively 'Project'.

I do not see it being proper for a Collective body to go up against a NEXUS body and win without any kind of circumstantial advantage. As above Nexus is somewhat quicker than Project, has better shielding but has lower HP and is more expensive.

Project lacks outstanding features but is cheaper.

Nexus has good shielding and a better pace but is more expensive. Nexus's advantage in shielding is partially off-set by Project's additional Hp. Nexus is also faster and so it is a superior body.

The aim is not equality at all costs. Any perceived inequalities may be tinkered with externally to the actual bodies.

I would say that New Paradigm's bodies suffer disadvantage in comparison to Collective but I'm not about to trump up the body because I am of the opinion that the New Paradigm should have an ace up its sleave in its Cyborg technologies.

Project could easily have a similar advantage but in the Mechs department.

- - -

I am glad that you acknowledge that its not easy to balance the bodies. I am thinking that there is one other way to balance the bodies but this will require a look at propulsions.
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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Olrox » 25 Sep 2009, 14:30

This is getting awfully boring...

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Re: Bodies - Meshing

Post by Kacen » 25 Sep 2009, 14:50

What do you mean "mechs"?

And well, you may be on to something, still.

It's just you have the speedy/low armored faction (NP), armored/slow faction (collective), and you have the "all-rounder" faction (what half-tracks are to wheels and treads, essentially). Problem is we have four factions, if we had just three it would be no issue.

Your idea of lower HP than project but better kinetic/thermal armor for NEXUS is interesting and could be going somewhere, if it wasn't for the fact that there is literally nothing else I can think of to balance NEXUS and Project I would have thought no.

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