Realistic/WWII total conversion?

[lav_coyote25]

bring me a msfrontpage to wiki converter!! 

[Troman]

way i see it, people aren't going to be too interested in modding for this game, or downloading this game to play if there isn't a good community of people to play it with. if we want this community to grow bigger, we're probably not going to be able to count on the single player campaign to do that.

That's also the way I see it. Most of the long-timers live from multiplayer mode, we have to give it more attention. There are some hindrances on our way though:

• inability to set up AI alliances: it's impossible to set up a game where you could play against 3-4 AIs with your buddy.
• instable multiplayer games: crappy net code - asyncs as a result, the famous 'supertruck', random crashes after 2-3 hours of playing - This all is surely very frustrating.
• multiplayer compatibility issues: it can take 20-30 minutes to sync all the game data, so it wouldn't kick players upon the game start, complaining about 'different data'.

One thing I definitely wanted to take care of was fixing the first issue, since Warzone Starter doesn't work with linux, so this is no issue anymore.
Fixing net code is harder. A multiplayer save feature could be a temporary solution, but I heard we have a volunteer to take care of the net code.
Third one is probably easier to deal with, but for now we have just disabled the compatibility check (game will warn but not kick).

Once all those issues are addressed i'm sure multiplayer will slowly gain more popularity and as a result the game itself.

Another thing having positive impact on the issue you described is new end-user features, especially those wished by fans since the release of the game, as i'm sure most of them are not just wished for no reason, they could improve the game a whole lot.

i still think it needs structs though

Structs might be a nice addition, I'll see how hard it would be to implement those.

i have been thinking that instead of one huge freaking massive file i am going to have to break it up into probably by topics instead... whatchathink... would that be better?

I think this is surely better, Coyote, especially for people with slower connection. People are usually interested in some particular document to clear up some questions and downloading 50mb of data might scare off modem users or people with traffic limit.

[DevUrandom]

kage: If you know 3-4 modders, then you know more than me.

Coyote: I don't think there is a "msfrontpage 2 wiki converter"... And actually it's not the sense of a Wiki to provide a webpage with any kind of style... Wiki is merely about raw information (which then is styled by the wiki-engine, not by the author). So actually you'd just need to type it into that textbox.

[Watermelon]

That's also the way I see it. Most of the long-timers live from multiplayer mode, we have to give it more attention. There are some hindrances on our way though:

• inability to set up AI alliances: it's impossible to set up a game where you could play against 3-4 AIs with your buddy.
• instable multiplayer games: crappy net code - asyncs as a result, the famous 'supertruck', random crashes after 2-3 hours of playing - This all is surely very frustrating.
• multiplayer compatibility issues: it can take 20-30 minutes to sync all the game data, so it wouldn't kick players upon the game start, complaining about 'different data'.

One thing I definitely wanted to take care of was fixing the first issue, since Warzone Starter doesn't work with linux, so this is no issue anymore.
Fixing net code is harder. A multiplayer save feature could be a temporary solution, but I heard we have a volunteer to take care of the net code.
Third one is probably easier to deal with, but for now we have just disabled the compatibility check (game will warn but not kick).

Once all those issues are addressed i'm sure multiplayer will slowly gain more popularity and as a result the game itself.

Another thing having positive impact on the issue you described is new end-user features, especially those wished by fans since the release of the game, as i'm sure most of them are not just wished for no reason, they could improve the game a whole lot.

Structs might be a nice addition, I'll see how hard it would be to implement those.

I think this is surely better, Coyote, especially for people with slower connection. People are usually interested in some particular document to clear up some questions and downloading 50mb of data might scare off modem users or people with traffic limit.

I think you can play human vs AI mode cooperatively in mp?

netcode is crappy indeed,maybe all orders/world update(coords,add/remove units buildings etc) should be handled in the host pc instead of processing different 'copies' of a mp game on all human player pcs and try to sync them.(units wrapping is much better than completely different 'local' game for different players in mp with a poor net condition imo)

Another problem is the length of mp games,a mp game lasts tediously long and to make things worse,a mp game has to be continuous,which means you have to complete a game with the length of a turn-based strategy mp game continuously...that's also the reason why I want to create a more action-orientated mod.

[DevUrandom]

There is another thread discussing a server model. http://wz2100.net/forum/index.php?topic=180.0 (Don't let the topic irritate you. We highjacked the thread. )

[kage]

• multiplayer compatibility issues: it can take 20-30 minutes to sync all the game data, so it wouldn't kick players upon the game start, complaining about 'different data'.

easy solution is to just send the md5's of each file for validation. that's not at all secure, but is much faster... right now, there is no way to make it secure, since, just as someone can mod the source to send false md5's, they can do the same with whole warzone files, or if they're downloading the "proper copy", the client can be made to lie, and store those elsewhere, such as /dev/null. and 20-30 minutes is often more than i'd imagine good cheater would need to win.

Once all those issues are addressed i'm sure multiplayer will slowly gain more popularity and as a result the game itself.

true enough, but again there will come a time where, unless we provide a really good mp experience, we won't be able to dev features fast enough to keep people from moving onto playing games that take advantage of their 1.5 ghz, 2 gb graphics cards -- this is exactly what happened while the game was closed source. if we can boost the popularity of the game somehow, we might acquire a large enough developer and modder base to sustain the popularity, much the same way as the original half-life still gets heavily played and modded.

Another thing having positive impact on the issue you described is new end-user features, especially those wished by fans since the release of the game, as i'm sure most of them are not just wished for no reason, they could improve the game a whole lot.

yep. multi-turreted vehicles was one of the first of those.

kage: If you know 3-4 modders, then you know more than me.

sure. first is coyote, second and third are those two modders that are working on the new headquarters models, and the fourth is for "sh*t happens".

Coyote: I don't think there is a "msfrontpage 2 wiki converter"... And actually it's not the sense of a Wiki to provide a webpage with any kind of style... Wiki is merely about raw information (which then is styled by the wiki-engine, not by the author). So actually you'd just need to type it into that textbox.

quite so -- one of the very beautiful things about wikis are that they restrict your ability to style it: information is provided in the most uniformely readable and organized ways possible, while still looking consistent and good.

given the amount of tag bloat generated by any and all html editors, if a converter did exist, converting them would always create enough artifacts that it would be painful to go back through and fix each problem -- you'd actually save time by copying and pasting each article in whole into a new wiki page, and then go back and add wiki formatting. wiki's are designed to allow for very fast formatting: if you cringe at the thought of doing this, i'd be happy to convert the doc project page by page if coyote, being chief-information officer, were to decide how these docs should be laid out in the wiki (which namespaces to use for what, etc).

I think you can play human vs AI mode cooperatively in mp?

as i interpereted it, troman is saying that, currently, humans can ally against ai players, but the ai cannot form alliances of their own -- as in, all humans can team up against all the ai players, but the ai players have to fight amongst themselves in addition to fighting the humans -- the ability for ai players to work together in a multiplayer game would make for better multiplayer games.

correct me if i'm wrong, but can't ai players offer and accept alliances through scripts alone?

Another problem is the length of mp games,a mp game lasts tediously long and to make things worse,a mp game has to be continuous,which means you have to complete a game with the length of a turn-based strategy mp game continuously...that's also the reason why I want to create a more action-orientated mod.

not much we can do about gameplay length in stock warzone aside from yelling at the players to "wake up and do something". who knows, though? perhaps your action mod will surpass counter-strike in global popularity...

There is another thread discussing a server model. http://wz2100.net/forum/index.php?topic=180.0 (Don't let the topic irritate you. We highjacked the thread. )

what do you mean "we highjacked"?! i hijacked that thread and you know it ;D

[DevUrandom]

what do you mean "we highjacked"?! i hijacked that thread and you know it ;D

Ok... So all the credit belongs to kage.

[Troman]

I think you can play human vs AI mode cooperatively in mp?

as i interpereted it, troman is saying that, currently, humans can ally against ai players, but the ai cannot form alliances of their own -- as in, all humans can team up against all the ai players, but the ai players have to fight amongst themselves in addition to fighting the humans -- the ability for ai players to work together in a multiplayer game would make for better multiplayer games.

Yes, there was no way to organize AI alliances, they would fight against each other randomly creating and breaking alliances. There was also no way of getting another AI on your team.

correct me if i'm wrong, but can't ai players offer and accept alliances through scripts alone?

Yes, this is done through scripts, only human human alliances are created/broken through the GUI alone. The problem with scripts is that you can't pre-define alliances before the beginning of the game, you can only use some fixed rules script files, like "Humans vs AIs", the way it was used in WZS.

Another problem is the length of mp games,a mp game lasts tediously long and to make things worse,a mp game has to be continuous,which means you have to complete a game with the length of a turn-based strategy mp game continuously...that's also the reason why I want to create a more action-orientated mod.

This is not a problem, this is the beauty of Warzone. It's a strategy game, yes, a wz game does last longer than most other games, but that's what makes it fun. I think you haven't played good long WZ games online, they can be really fun.

But anyway, it shouldn't be hard to create a MOD that would shorten games. All you have to do is to lower reseatch topic cost and/or research topic research time for all research topics, they are defined somewhere in .txt files I think.

true enough, but again there will come a time where, unless we provide a really good mp experience, we won't be able to dev features fast enough to keep people from moving onto playing games that take advantage of their 1.5 ghz, 2 gb graphics cards

I don't think we have to develop new features constantly to keep people playing the game, I think we have to fix existing features and concepts. Look at Starcraft, the game is still being played after years and there are only bugfixes, no new features. There's no superb 3d gfx, just 2d sprites or whatever.
There are no annoyances, no stability issues, setting up a multiplayer game is straight-forward. The game is well balanced, and with 3 unique races and big number of different strategies/tactics no game is like another.

This all keeps players entertained.

[lav_coyote25]

ok - well i need to be able to create pages on the wikki - how do i get to that page where i can create the following wich has just taken me several hours to do up.... just due to learning the markup of wikki tables - which by the way arent as straight forward to those that havent done it prior.

oh joy!! >:( ??? ;D

WarZone TechTree - No Graphics.

Warzone2100TechTree Structure Updated by LAV_Coyote25
    Original Tech Tree From Pumpkin Studios 1999
    Tech Tree Covers versions  1.10 to 1.11
  September 07, 2003 13:00hrs  - 1.12 added.


    |  Base Structures  |  Base Defenses  |  Turrets  |  Cyborgs  |  Bodies  |  Propulsions  |  Mines 1.12 only  |
***above points will be links to the bits below - wikilinks. each tech should have own page!!***
=====


|  Base Structure Name  |  Item Description  |  Body Points  |  Armour Value  |  Research  |
|  Headquarters  |  This item provides you with essential Radar & unit design capabilities.  |  500  |  10  |  None  |
|  Command Center  |  Directs and collates information for command turrets.  |  500  |  10  |  Required  |
|  Demolish Structure  |  Use this option to demolish selected structures. 50% of the structures build cost is returned  |  N/A  |  N/A    |  None  |
|  Oil Derrick  |  Oil Derricks allow you to pump oil to convert into power.  |  300  |  5  |  None  |
|  Power Generator  |  A Power Generator is used to produce power for up to 4 oil derricks.  |  500  |  20  |  None  |
|  Power Module  |  This structure increases rate at which a generator converts oil to power.  |  500  |  10  |  Required  |
|  Factory  |  Use a Factory to produce ground based units for your conquest.  |  500  |  10  |  Research  |
|  Research Facility  |  A Research Facility will allow you to develop more advanced technology.  |  400  |  10  |  Required  |
|  Research Module  |  Reduces Research times.  |  400  |  10  |  Required  |
|  Cyborg Factory  |  This structure allows the production of Cyborgs.  |  500  |  10  |  Required  |
|  Repair Facility  |  This structure provides a fast and effective way to repair damaged units.  |  500  |  10  |  Required  |
|  VTOL Factory  |  VTOL factory enables the production of Vertical Take Off and Landing craft.  |  250  |  10  |  Required  |
|  VTOL Pad  |  Refuels, rearms and repairs VTOLS.  |  150  |  10  |  Required  |
|  Wall  |  Basic base defense.  |  265  |  15  |  Required  |                                 

[DevUrandom]

According to Kamaze and the ACL (access control list) you should be able to create wiki pages everywhere.
Easiest is probably to search for the topic you want to create (you won't get a result, of course) and click on "create this page" at the top.
You need to be logged in, which you can do with your forums login.

[kage]

whoa, uh.

don't ever use tables for anything aside from something that actually belongs in a table. it seems like so far you're only talking about stat tables, but i just want to make sure.

as for stat tables, well, those will change too frequently to be maintainable in wiki form, and wiki's aren't really designed to store that kind of information -- best to hold off on the stats tables and go for a traditional database approach.

when i said wikify, i was pretty much meaning all tutorials, specifications, tips, tricks, etc, but the tech-tree/stats are really deserving of their own system.

[lav_coyote25]

aw - you got no sense of adventure man!!!  ;D

well.. i think it can be done - and the way i am thinking of doing it...


which is why i asked for some comments.

[kage]

it definitely can be done, and it's a lot cleaner than it is in html, but as soon as someone tweaks the stats to balance out some new feature... not to mention, static stat display is horrible for keeping track of multiple mods -- say an official wzr mp mod, and the original mp mod...

also, you can do graphics... in dokuwiki, which we're using, there's an upload button you can use, or if you're using external images, you can use {{http://some-image-here}} notation, iirc.

also, dokuwiki has a really nice plugin you might be able to use for the tech tree stuff -- check out the dokuwiki ditaa plugin

[lav_coyote25]

too much to do - change of venue i think  - at least for the tech tree.

[kage]

too much to do - change of venue i think  - at least for the tech tree.

yeah, as said, i'd happily convert everything besides the tech tree and stat tables, as those aspects of the doc project are the only things that actually require considerable effort to re-organize.