Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

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Shadow Wolf TJC
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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 01 Jun 2012, 03:55

T2 and above defenses currently require Structure Materials upgrades to unlock, while Fortresses and Firebases in general also require Engineering upgrades to unlock (since they're so expensive and time-consuming to build). Sadly, I was initially worried about there being too many structures to build and research, and while I'm still worried about there being too many structures to build, I may want to work on adding higher-tiered structures mounting lower-tiered turrets, such as T2 Supercrete Hardpoints mounting T1 Heavy Cannons for example, later on.

Edit: I know what you mean though. This mod is so new and expansive that it's almost like playing a competitive multiplayer game that was just released. It'll take time to get used to, and for tried-and-true strategies to be discovered, but I'm glad that you're enjoying it. :D
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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by NoQ » 01 Jun 2012, 18:13

Tried to play (: Yay, nice TCmask on wheels. Wow, they build quickly.

But i didn't really read the threads attentively :oops: so i'll just list what seemed strange. First, is it ok that i'm having two completely similar MG ROF upgrades to choose from? Second, i found the "power generator required" message to be a little bit annoying. It is perfectly ok to have the generator as 6th or 7th building, and you already start capturing derricks by that time (before your opponent takes them), so these messages are irrelevant at that phase, though later they become useful. Could you probably decrease the rate? This probably also needs to check wether the generator is completed, not just started to be built (something like powergen.status == BEING_BUILT)

P.S. i hanged on the 3rd minute of the game, sounded like a script infinite loop, with no stderr errors or crash dumps. Most likely it's nullbot that i tried using without tweaking.

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About the Contingency AI development: do you want to have an RW access to the NullBot git? Cause i'll be adding the AI there. If you don't touch any other files but your personality definition, you won't break anything (:

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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by aubergine » 01 Jun 2012, 18:38

@NoQ - yes, it's nullbot I think - I had same issue with game hang, removed nullbot and got through a whole game.
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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by aubergine » 01 Jun 2012, 18:48

@Shadow Wolf: I'm trying to get a screen shot of a firebase artillery structure (the one with the red muzzle on the end) taken from an angle that looks good in widescreen perspective, but when I go in to cheat mode and "give all" I don't receive the structure.

Do you have any screenies of just that firebase artillery on some nice terrain, taken from the side with camera zoomed out about 50%, with the turret facing left but then tilted slightly towards camera? Basically a good profile shot of the weapon... If you think there's a better weapon to sum up the mod, let me know. Examples of pics I'm using for other mods here: https://warzone.atlassian.net/wiki/disp ... ome+Addons
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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 01 Jun 2012, 19:06

NoQ wrote:Tried to play (: Yay, nice TCmask on wheels. Wow, they build quickly.
Thanks. Yeah, I kind of ramped up production rates to SupCom levels, at least for cyborgs and light vehicles, :lol2: though I doubt that the same would apply to heavy vehicles, fortresses, or Super Transports. BTW, have you tried building any of those?
NoQ wrote:First, is it ok that i'm having two completely similar MG ROF upgrades to choose from?
The Recoiless Machinegun Upgrade is actually supposed to be an accuracy upgrade. I'll need to work on changing the research icons later, though there may be other upgrades out there that share the same problem.
NoQ wrote:Second, i found the "power generator required" message to be a little bit annoying. It is perfectly ok to have the generator as 6th or 7th building, and you already start capturing derricks by that time (before your opponent takes them), so these messages are irrelevant at that phase, though later they become useful. Could you probably decrease the rate? This probably also needs to check wether the generator is completed, not just started to be built (something like powergen.status == BEING_BUILT)
Perhaps I could increase it (and perhaps the "Power Low" message) to 15 seconds? 20 seconds? 30?
NoQ wrote:P.S. i hanged on the 3rd minute of the game, sounded like a script infinite loop, with no stderr errors or crash dumps. Most likely it's nullbot that i tried using without tweaking.
What map size were you playing on, and with how many players? For me, I often get crashes when there's too many units moving around on the map, even with the standard NEXUS AI. This seems to be especially common when the map is big, with lots of players, and when the player has a Satellite Uplink or god mode on.

There should be a .rpt file somewhere within your logs folder. (Try sorting it by file type if need be.) Perhaps uploading your most recent .rpt file could help?
NoQ wrote:About the Contingency AI development: do you want to have an RW access to the NullBot git? Cause i'll be adding the AI there. If you don't touch any other files but your personality definition, you won't break anything (:
I was thinking about making it a standalone mod that could be bundled along with contingency.wz, or downloadable in this thread. Also, since it's your AI, and since I currently have no experience with AI development, I suggest that you work on what strategies it will use yourself, as chances are that we both have different playstyles that we prefer. However, since you're far more experienced at Warzone 2100 multiplayer than I am, I'd consider your playstyle to be more tried-and-true than mine. :thank_you:
aubergine wrote:I'm trying to get a screen shot of a firebase artillery structure (the one with the red muzzle on the end) taken from an angle that looks good in widescreen perspective, but when I go in to cheat mode and "give all" I don't receive the structure.
Sorry, but there's far too many structures in structures.txt for the debug menu or the give all cheat to handle (though I hope that there's not too much for regular gameplay). You may have to research it the old-fashioned way in order to be able to build it (though the "work harder" and "get off my land" cheats still works, as does pausing the AIs through the debug menu (Ctrl+O)).

Edit: Version 0.0.3 is out now.
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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by Iluvalar » 01 Jun 2012, 20:12

Hello all,

Sorry shadow wolf, but I'll repeat what I expect so they can be aware of that earlier...

Even if the mod was perfectly balanced (which is impossible due to complexity), there would still be "timing" issues. One weapons will be accessible straight at the same time than an interesting body allowing the player to combine them in design... A ROF upgrade will appear just after you end your power upgrades allowing you to chain you labs loss less etc...

Whatever how hard Shadow Wolf try to balance it, some lines will be +-20% stronger than the others. In the standard game, the game theory would come into play. One would be aware that playing cannon give a better payoff and will tend to play it more often, but then, cyborgs that is the counter to cannons would become likewise interesting and would be played just as much as the cannons is played more. That would balance both lines in a prisoner's dilemma equilibrium. At the end, if the cannon are 20% better, they will be played 20% more often. 24% cannons, 24% borgs, 18% everything else... where we aim 20% for all. it would be barely noticeable and every weapons lines would still be played.

However in contingency, shadow wolf gave an anti-borg weapons to the cannons. So the cyborgs strategy will not counteract the cannon line as much. As a result, if the cannon is 20% stronger than the other lines, you will have a fully 20% more chance to win if you play it and nothing to counter you... The proportion of players that will play cannons will grow until there is only that strategy played. Every other lines would be useless. We'd get 100% cannon+borgs and nothing else. Every other strat. will be decorations...

I'm telling this so everybody can have an eye on the phenomenon; Once players will start to discover what line yield better result, all other will progressively flow into the same strat. and the research and design layer will be dead.
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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by NoQ » 01 Jun 2012, 20:30

There should be a .rpt file somewhere within your logs folder.
That's not a crash, that's a script hang, i'm sure. It doesn't produce any .rpt files because the game runs correctly. Also, i'm sure that's not the mod's fault.
Perhaps I could increase it (and perhaps the "Power Low" message) to 15 seconds? 20 seconds? 30?
I think even 60 seconds should be fine ... enough to hear (:
strategies
playstyle
These are remaining unchanged, apart from the build orders, which i'll take the responsibility to alter.
But i need the knowledge of the stats, which i completely lack.
For example, could you list all AR-class cannon weapon stat names, sorted by strength? And their research stat names sorted by earliness? I need that sort of data, a lot of it. NullBot personality definition is mostly composed of a certain number of such lists, inlined into the code. It'd be seriously painful to lookup all the stat names, but you may have some order in your head that will make it easier (?)

Also, do you have any idea what weapon branches are playable alone, and which ones need to be combined with other branches? For example, can a player actually survive with only cannons?

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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 01 Jun 2012, 21:16

Iluvalar wrote:Hello all,

Sorry shadow wolf, but I'll repeat what I expect so they can be aware of that earlier...

<insert sizable rant here>
And I'll repeat what I expect of your rant here in a much more shorter, simpler sentence: we need more points of view that confirm that your data is valid. :stare:
NoQ wrote:These are remaining unchanged, apart from the build orders, which i'll take the responsibility to alter.
But i need the knowledge of the stats, which i completely lack.
For example, could you list all AR-class cannon weapon stat names, sorted by strength? And their research stat names sorted by earliness? I need that sort of data, a lot of it. NullBot personality definition is mostly composed of a certain number of such lists, inlined into the code. It'd be seriously painful to lookup all the stat names, but you may have some order in your head that will make it easier (?)

Also, do you have any idea what weapon branches are playable alone, and which ones need to be combined with other branches? For example, can a player actually survive with only cannons?
I'm going to need a long time to type that up, but here goes...
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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by Iluvalar » 01 Jun 2012, 21:47

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:
Iluvalar wrote:Hello all,

Sorry shadow wolf, but I'll repeat what I expect so they can be aware of that earlier...

<insert sizable rant here>
And I'll repeat what I expect of your rant here in a much more shorter, simpler sentence: we need more points of view that confirm that your data is valid. :stare:
They must know what they are looking for for that to happen...
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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by NoQ » 01 Jun 2012, 21:56

I'm going to need a long time to type that up, but here goes...
Ok whatever, i'd try to start that tomorrow too (:

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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by Reg312 » 01 Jun 2012, 22:00

some off topic
NoQ wrote: For example, could you list all AR-class cannon weapon stat names, sorted by strength? And their research stat names sorted by earliness?
he he, with my stat editor you can sort data even by sum of research points :P

@Iluvalar: balance issues apeears only when you have more than 50-100 players and at least 5 pro-players :)
(that digits just because... i hope you undestand idea)


@Shadow Wolf TJC: where i can see pictures of mod? too many letter here :ninja:

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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 01 Jun 2012, 23:41

Reg312 wrote:@Shadow Wolf TJC: where i can see pictures of mod? too many letter here :ninja:
I released a bunch of pictures that showcase some parts of the mod during pre-beta development: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=8949&start=30#p98807

@NoQ: I've started work on a basic table for the Machinegun line:

Code: Select all

Weapon name || Tier || Damage || ROF (Shots per minute) || Accuracy (Short/Long) || Range (Short/Long) || Weight || Cost || Damage Type || Damage Class

Code: Select all

Machineguns:

Machinegun || T1 || 9s || 75 || 100/66 || 6.4/8 || 1000 || 4$ || Anti-Personnel || Kinetic
Twin Machinegun || T1 || 9s || 150 || 87/58 || 6.4/8 || 1500 || 10$ || Anti-Personnel || Kinetic
Heavy Machinegun || T1 || 11s || 75 || 87/58 || 6.4/8 || 2000 || 10$ || Anti-Personnel || Kinetic
Twin Heavy Machinegun || T1 || 11s || 150 || 87/58 || 6.4/8 || 4000 || 23$ || Anti-Personnel || Kinetic
Vulcan Gattling Gun || T1 || 14s || 75 || 87/58 || 6.4/8 || 4000 || 23$ || All-Rounder || Kinetic
Hurricane AA || T1 || 14s || 150 || 58/39 || 8/16 || 8000 || 53$ || All-Rounder || Kinetic
Assault Gun || T2 || 13s || 100 || 58/39 || 8/10 || 2000 || 13$ || Anti-Personnel || Kinetic
Twin Assault Gun || T2 || 13s || 200 || 58/39 || 8/10 || 4000 || 30$ || Anti-Personnel || Kinetic
Punisher Gattling Gun || T2 || 16s || 75 || 58/39 || 8/10 || 4000 || 30$ || Anti-Tank || Kinetic
Whirlwind AA || T2 || 16s || 150 || 58/39 || 8/16 || 8000 || 70$ || All-Rounder || Kinetic
Incendiary Machinegun || T1 || 10sf || 75 || 87/58 || 6.4/8 || 2000 || 10$ || Anti-Personnel || Heat
Twin Incendiary MG || T1 || 10sf || 150 || 87/58 || 6.4/8 || 4000 || 23$ || Anti-Personnel || Heat
Hellspitter Machinegun || T2 || 12sf || 100 || 58/39 || 8/10 || 2000 || 13$ || Anti-Personnel || Heat
Twin Hellspitter MG || T2 || 12sf || 200 || 58/39 || 8/10 || 4000 || 30$ || Anti-Personnel || Heat
However, these are just the basic stats of the weapons. They'll be more powerful with upgrades.

For the record, I'm in no rush to see Nullbot adapted for this mod. In fact, I'd personally want to give players a month or 2 to get used to it. Besides, there are other things that I'd personally want to do, such as squashing bugs that arise and adding stuff that didn't make it into the 1st beta.

Edit: I've prepared a folder for anyone that's interested in creating maps using Warzone 2100: Contingency material. I've bundled it into the next beta release: 0.1 Just be sure to extract "objectDataContingency" and tell FlaME to add the folder to Object Data Directories.

Edit #2: Shoot! The objectDataContingency folder is too big. :augh:
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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by aubergine » 02 Jun 2012, 03:37

Finally got a pic for the wiki page:

https://warzone.atlassian.net/wiki/down ... ngency.png

Now I just need to convince Shadow Wolf to help me write a page about the mod :)
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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 02 Jun 2012, 04:52

Well, long story short, what originally started as a discussion about rebalancing the main game turned into something more, a mod that was so large in scale that it could be comparable in scope to an expansion pack (minus a new campaign). While my main goal was to provide a rebalanced, fun experience for players to enjoy over "vanilla Warzone 2100", some of my objectives for attaining it included:

- Transitioning from an additive upgrade system (for example, going from %100 to %125 to %150 to %175...) to an exponential system (for example, going from %100 to %110 to %121 to %133.1...), so that each new upgrade has as proportionally big of an impact over the previous upgrade as the previous upgrade had over the one that came before it.
- Standardizing weapons and vehicle bodies so that both small and big units could have an equal chance at stealing the spotlight, even in late-game.
- Making the weapon lines a bit more independent of eachother.
- Combining some similar weapon lines, such as AA with Machineguns, Mortars with Howitzers, and Rockets with Missiles, so that upgrades would be more applicable to a wider variety of similar weapons (such as Machineguns and AA, or Rockets and Missiles), and so that upgrades from older obsolete weapon lines (such as Mortars) could carry on over to newer ones (such as Howitzers).
- Patching weaknesses to various weapon lines so that players that specialize in them aren't as vulnerable to threats that the weapon lines would've normally been weak against in "vanilla Warzone 2100" (such as tanks for Machineguns, and Cyborgs for Cannons). For the Flamer line, this involved moving the start of the Lasers line to the beginning of T2.
- Adding many cross-weapon-line technologies to help promote diversity in terms of research for high-oil and team-based games, even in spite of my efforts to patch many weapon lines' traditional weaknesses.
- Splitting Kinetic Armor upgrades away from Composite Alloys into its own upgrade line: Reactive Armor. This is so that players could choose to upgrade unit HP independently from Kinetic Armor, which wouldn't matter if the opponent was specializing in, say, Lasers or Flamers.
- Merging Vehicle and Cyborg upgrades into upgrade lines that would apply to both vehicles and Cyborgs. No longer would players be forced into choosing one over the other.
- Merging Structure Materials upgrades with Improved Hardcrete upgrades, for the same reasons above.
- Adjusting research progress so that players starting out on T1 no-bases games would more gradually be introduced to new gameplay mechanics in a fair and balanced way, and have a better chance at dealing with opponents that exploit them, as the match goes on.
- Adding more fortresses to more weapon lines. Previously, only the Cannon/Railgun and Rocket/Missile lines had access to fortresses.
- Rebalancing propulsions so that Tracks, Half-Tracks, and even Wheels could get more love, even in late-game.
- Giving some underused technologies, including Tank Traps, some much-needed attention.
- Adding heavier versions of some existing turrets (such as Twin Minipods, Heavy Trucks, and Heavy Sensor Turrets to name a few) so that players could have a wider variety of more viable turrets to choose from for their heavier vehicles.

That's just a handful of steps that I remember taking to achieve this goal. There may be more steps that I took that I can't remember at this moment.
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Re: Warzone 2100: Contingency (Beta now released)

Post by NoQ » 02 Jun 2012, 06:19

I've started work on a basic table for the Machinegun line:
Uhm no no no, just the names and damage class (AT/AP/whatever)! :stressed: :oops:
Even better if not even name but statname (eg. MG1Mk1 rather than Machinegun) :wink:
But that's good, i can start working on a MG spammer already (:

Of course, other people will like to have this sort of guide.

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