[mod]Next Research System (NRS) 2.3.9

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Iluvalar
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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 10 Nov 2011, 19:37

Reg312 wrote:Great work you did Iluvalar! but you know..
What i dislike in NRS:

1) research strategy have great influence on result.
in original WZ four players can research simply all without hearts and play well

2) Totally cannot estimate weapon&body power
ir original WZ if i see heavy cannons or inferno i know it can burn my ass

3) Tactics works bad because satuplink appear so early

4) Buildings invulnerable for early weapons
Thank you for your comments. I really appreciate. That's really the kind of comments that helped me reach the V20 byslowly improving it.

1) That's official, you are a die hard high oil player for sure :augh: . It's not "original" warzone btw ^^. I've been fighting against that since the very beginning by scaling my research appropriately with the amount of oil. But there is no hard rules against that. Except you will displease all the low players (that seek more influential research) from the mod. I'll try a version of NTW packed as if there was only 30 oil in one side for you one of these days... I just have another experiment to carry on before.

2) You can estimate the maximal compared strength by knowing how much you didn't spent in your own design. Non military research even show how much your design will lose in strength. For example, a power upgrade will make you lose 17% of you strength on the battle field. From that point, you need to risk and scout a bit to understand how much non-military research your opponent have done. The specific weapons only help you deciding if you change design (because weapon modifiers) or not. It "just" account for 40-225% of the outcome.

3) As the lab says : you pay a 16% upgrade to get the satellite, and another ~16% to build it. In total, the units of the players are systematically 25% weaker because he have that intelligence. Does it worth it ? maybe, maybe not, it depend. Everything have his price in NRS, but it's not true that in every game the uplink appear so early. If you have it in every game that early, you probably pay just to see your death coming from far away. And effectively, your opponent wont need any tactic for that.

4) I saw many games won in mg, cannon or flamer rushes. You start with the units, then the time to take down the structure is not that important. Maybe you never success in the mg rush because you spend your power elsewhere then in the mg upgrades ? I'm not scared about the futur of the rushing strategies in NRS :lol2: .
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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Reg312 » 10 Nov 2011, 21:35

1) See, players spent not only power on research.
Players also spent time to research something.
In NRS you increased power and time. This gives great importance of research selecting.
and It greater than low oil dueling games.

I think you should reduce power or time of research.
also i cannot understand why research of visible weapons have lesser price than research of weapons upgrades.
In original WZ every weapon is stage of research path.

2) I think your percentage calculations is incorrect
50% of oil is not 50% of your strenght
for example you can research artillery and your "50%" is nothing (zero)
50% power gives 50% strenght only of you have attack rushing strategy
but if you want artillery and dont want power module?
player with pow mod can make tracked tanks, but you cannot make other weapons because you spent power on artillery...
so may be im not right in some moments..

3) First, if enemy has not sat uplink he cannot see number of your troops
how he can check if you have 25% lesser forces?
Second, 25% better tanks not gives total 25% power, you can make mistake, or you can loss power on waste research\buildins
BUT if you built satuplink you never make a mistake
It gives advantage for all game, its very important to see what kind of tanks have your enemy.
when enemy see map, you cannot hide your forces count,
Also if you see lassat you can spread your forces over map to avoid destruction

So you cannot compare effectiveness of sat uplink with power cost of satuplink
That comaping works if enemy attacks and try crush you at current moment
May be it works in low oil dueling games, where every research means you have less tanks and cannot fight for more oil
but in game 4x4 it not works, if one player have 25% less powerm but all team have satuplink..

4) So can you say why you did this? why you think that original WZ buildings is too weak?
may be you beware MG wars?
why you just cannot make base materials upgrade
if player fears of rush he can research base materials.
In NRS i need 100 units to defeat base
why i should wait if i want attack immidiately? but i know if i start attack early i can lose my units in fight on base

So i propose change dynamics of wall and base materials upgrade.. like it in original WZ

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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Arreon » 10 Nov 2011, 22:53

If I can make a few suggestions of my own:

1: Reduce the build time of the "mini" scourge cyborgs, because they take way too long to produce even one IMO.

2: Expand on your "cannon counterpart" to the MG builds, using other starter weapons like flamers and mini rockets and changing the templates so they suit the new body system of NRS. I'd love to see more variation. :) I'd also like to see the AI actually use what they research.

3: Increase the priority on CB artillery, because I heard you changed the triggering moment for the CB. Oftentimes, I find that my CB sensor ignores the enemy artillery while stuff gets wiped out. :annoyed:

4: (experimental) Add some sort of "teamwork" research bonus if you research something an ally is researching at the same time.

5: If you can, fix the Design UI so that my Particle Cannon option doesn't disappear after more weapons are available. I want to select everything I researched.

Other than that, you're doing great, and I'm really enjoying this mod.
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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 11 Nov 2011, 00:31

1) The new components are faster than upgrades because players asked for faster research. So... the components line last 20 minutes (giving a wide variety of choice in a decent amount of time) while the reserch line dont stop before 40 minutes (preventing the game to freeze after only 20 minutes).

2-3) If we assume that a player will research stuff that he dont use correctly. We are getting nowhere. I assume that a player know that the mg upgrade work only for mg and that he wont research cannons instead. Or more exactly, i'm under the assomption that both team is equaly stupid and will do the same amount of "wrong" research.

3) No the player pay for a research that would otherwise have an effect for the whole team. The whole team lose an upgrade or two to reach the full map visibility.

4) It's caused by the bad progression system of the standard game, by the time your machine gun vipers reach the opposite base, they already have half of all the mg upgrade they can expect from the whole game. After only 5 minute (in only one research lab). That's one of the problem I want to fix in NRS. When you reach the base with your early viper wheel, they are not is the same "do or die" situation where they'll get obsolete in the next minute if they dont kill half of the base.
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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Reg312 » 11 Nov 2011, 10:52

Iluvalar wrote: 3) No the player pay for a research that would otherwise have an effect for the whole team. The whole team lose an upgrade or two to reach the full map visibility.
what upgrade can have same nice effectiveness with such cost?
and note, with power module and power upgrades satuplink not very hard to buy

again, i propose increase satuplink and lassat cost in 3 times :)

you forcing make me my own res mod :)
i cannot host games and distribute my mods, but i like to do such work

i think there is some psychologic effect, when player bought weapon and used it in design screen, it makes him happy
happyness is happyness when it hard to get, but too much happiness have decrease effect of happiness
so too much aviable weapons from start is not good :)
you should better use visible models to show players combat strenght, in NRS all power in coefficients
its nice.. but not good :)

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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 11 Nov 2011, 16:55

Reg312 wrote: what upgrade can have same nice effectiveness with such cost?
All of them ! Even not researching at all is as good because of interest rate. That uplink cost you 1$ per second. That would be enough for your opponent to build a little army of 10-15 tanks each time you have a full lassat to shoot (how convenient).
Having 33% more strength is serious business.

I can't change the lassat research price because it's a weapon and every weapon are autobalanced. The lassat would only end up cheaper to build. :dontknow: .

I told you I'll destroy the tech tree principle in a few, by dividing the cost so much you can fill a whole 5 labs without caring. We'll se if you prefer that. I'll sure wont.
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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 11 Nov 2011, 16:57

Arreon wrote:If I can make a few suggestions of my own:

1: Reduce the build time of the "mini" scourge cyborgs, because they take way too long to produce even one IMO.

2: Expand on your "cannon counterpart" to the MG builds, using other starter weapons like flamers and mini rockets and changing the templates so they suit the new body system of NRS. I'd love to see more variation. :) I'd also like to see the AI actually use what they research.

3: Increase the priority on CB artillery, because I heard you changed the triggering moment for the CB. Oftentimes, I find that my CB sensor ignores the enemy artillery while stuff gets wiped out. :annoyed:

4: (experimental) Add some sort of "teamwork" research bonus if you research something an ally is researching at the same time.

5: If you can, fix the Design UI so that my Particle Cannon option doesn't disappear after more weapons are available. I want to select everything I researched.

Other than that, you're doing great, and I'm really enjoying this mod.
1. Wish granted
2. Wish granted
3. 4. 5. I can't do those. It's the code part not the mod.
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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Reg312 » 11 Nov 2011, 17:26

interest rate is bad idea for me... if i see free money i should do something :fie:
you know in last strategy game i played every factory had greater price like 5 for 1st factory, then 500, 5000, 50000...
it can be intresting if make same thing for research in WZ.. every research center have greater price
i still dont know all principles of your autobalance
how you calculate area and damage of lassat
with lassat you can easily break any defense
also you can stike player's base
nvm.. for example artillery tactics can be defended by counter-artillery, tracked tanks, spam cyborgs
how defend lassat?
in future some players can learn NRS better and lassat can become obsolete noob weapon
can you say one thing? why 1 lassat cannot connet with all 8 satellites
8 lassat can strike at one time, so we have 8 satellites, but why one lassat cannot connect with all 8? :ninja:

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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 12 Nov 2011, 01:20

Reg312 wrote: in future some players can learn NRS better and lassat can become obsolete noob weapon
Exact ! Except the future is now and even the AI know how to kick the ass of such noob.

now in V22 in a new 3rd different way.

*Scourge borgs fixed. They are listed twice in templates causing me problems.
*Now the research will say +XX% for XX%. The "for" indicate the standard gain from the same research cost for exemple : flashlight +35% for 28% . indicate that you new component will be 35% stronger than a machine gun for the price of a 28% machine gun upgrade. Of course, you'll need to start your army from scratch, that's why you get that small bonus if you compare to the upgrade.
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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Arreon » 12 Nov 2011, 02:01

Iluvalar wrote:
Arreon wrote:If I can make a few suggestions of my own:

1: Reduce the build time of the "mini" scourge cyborgs, because they take way too long to produce even one IMO.

2: Expand on your "cannon counterpart" to the MG builds, using other starter weapons like flamers and mini rockets and changing the templates so they suit the new body system of NRS. I'd love to see more variation. :) I'd also like to see the AI actually use what they research.

3: Increase the priority on CB artillery, because I heard you changed the triggering moment for the CB. Oftentimes, I find that my CB sensor ignores the enemy artillery while stuff gets wiped out. :annoyed:

4: (experimental) Add some sort of "teamwork" research bonus if you research something an ally is researching at the same time.

5: If you can, fix the Design UI so that my Particle Cannon option doesn't disappear after more weapons are available. I want to select everything I researched.

Other than that, you're doing great, and I'm really enjoying this mod.
1. Wish granted
2. Wish granted
3. 4. 5. I can't do those. It's the code part not the mod.
You think I should submit a ticket for 3, 4, and 5?

Thanks for the first two though. :)

I had a look in the multiplayer folder of NRS and found some VLO files without an SLO, except for player0. Is it possible to try to get another AI (say, Dydo 2.2.4) to work? Not sure if it is, but I don't know much about VLO and SLO files.
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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 15 Nov 2011, 06:07

No I can't. It was already hard to adapt semperfi to the new tech tree. For what I can tell Dydo was not edited that much either. You can consider that AI as a brand new one. It would take a serious time to adapt another AI and there is no garanty it will be stronger considering the new mod.


NRS+V26
*Bunker buster now alone in its own line. (there was serious issues when a player teching hard the anti-tank modifier was suddely arriving with an anti-structure one. Now it's possible to defend rockets by investing in structures. However.. i'm not sure about the bunker buster futur. I gave it a serious boost, but it have no upgrades at all.
*3 new structures in the mod. The nuclear reactor lead after to the solar plant. both gives around 1.4$ per 10 seconds. However the solar plant is cheaper, so it's an obvious better choice if you plan to reach it. the third special building is a propagande tower it purpose is to economicaly weaken the enemies. But it is also leeching you teamates for 1$ per second yourself will be affected for .5$ per second. It is probably weaker in 1v1 or 4v4 but probably good when you go over 3 factions in FFA. However as long as you are economicaly stronger then you opponent, it might still be a cool solution for an economic victory. :) .

thx for all (test, play, comments...)
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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Arreon » 15 Nov 2011, 06:19

Whoa, V26? What happened to 22-25? Or were they just not ready for release yet and merged into V26? :)
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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Iluvalar » 15 Nov 2011, 16:30

Arreon wrote:Whoa, V26? What happened to 22-25? Or were they just not ready for release yet and merged into V26? :)
thx for all (test, play, comments...)
:P Each time I do a pack, I must change the version. So even a one game test would count. I did 3 "one game test" to come out with the best balance for those new structures.
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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by zany » 17 Nov 2011, 09:13

Reg312 wrote:interest rate is bad idea for me... if i see free money i should do something :fie:
you know in last strategy game i played every factory had greater price like 5 for 1st factory, then 500, 5000, 50000...
it can be intresting if make same thing for research in WZ.. every research center have greater price
i still dont know all principles of your autobalance
how you calculate area and damage of lassat
with lassat you can easily break any defense
also you can stike player's base
nvm.. for example artillery tactics can be defended by counter-artillery, tracked tanks, spam cyborgs
how defend lassat?
in future some players can learn NRS better and lassat can become obsolete noob weapon
can you say one thing? why 1 lassat cannot connet with all 8 satellites
8 lassat can strike at one time, so we have 8 satellites, but why one lassat cannot connect with all 8? :ninja:
this dude knows what he is talking about.
how the hell is this mod coming up with the changes?
we tried 4 lan games to get a feel for what is going on and nobody liked the idea of a interest rate or the way things got changed.
no disrespect but this mod isn't very good dude.

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Re: [mod]Next Research System (NRS)

Post by Arreon » 17 Nov 2011, 11:44

zany wrote:
Reg312 wrote:interest rate is bad idea for me... if i see free money i should do something :fie:
you know in last strategy game i played every factory had greater price like 5 for 1st factory, then 500, 5000, 50000...
it can be intresting if make same thing for research in WZ.. every research center have greater price
i still dont know all principles of your autobalance
how you calculate area and damage of lassat
with lassat you can easily break any defense
also you can stike player's base
nvm.. for example artillery tactics can be defended by counter-artillery, tracked tanks, spam cyborgs
how defend lassat?
in future some players can learn NRS better and lassat can become obsolete noob weapon
can you say one thing? why 1 lassat cannot connet with all 8 satellites
8 lassat can strike at one time, so we have 8 satellites, but why one lassat cannot connect with all 8? :ninja:
this dude knows what he is talking about.
how the hell is this mod coming up with the changes?
we tried 4 lan games to get a feel for what is going on and nobody liked the idea of a interest rate or the way things got changed.
no disrespect but this mod isn't very good dude.
Then turn off Lassat. :lecture:
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