Play some larger maps

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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby Hesterax » 07 Mar 2015, 19:19

montetank wrote:
iceman11a wrote:3) Maybe I'm not as fast as you are.
Thats not the reason. I have to repeat: Please read the guide. And play the campaign first. Learn the shortcuts. For example: If you click Ctrl+a all your combat units will be selected and then click ,u that for example would mean: all combat units ordered for long range shots and retreat at medium damage. It seems, that you want to play Warzone like an experienced player. Thats not possible. Warzone is a very complex game like chess, and thats the reason i like it. First time i played the game 7 years ago, without any help i solved the campaign. Try it out. You can find many vids on youtube. And the shortkeys you can find under OPTIONS-keymappings. I am not sure, but i think the shift t command for the trucks are not in function, the other should be. If you play the game every day 30 minutes, you will see, that you will handle with the shortcuts easily. Its like driving a car. You won`t think anymore, what you have to click. Good luck.
PLAY THE CAMPAIGN FIRST! :lecture:

I actually don't find the campaign too useful to improve your performance in the game. It does give you a nice in-depht knowledge about the research tree and how to strategically position your units. But that is it. It does not provide you with a lot of information about base building and fast paced skirmish matches, especially what to do in those matches. So, it is not really necessary to play the campaign to cope with skirmish.

Though it is best that you follow all of the other advice that montetank mentioned in his comment ESPECIALLY the shortcuts :)
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby montetank » 07 Mar 2015, 19:26

Hesterax wrote:I actually don't find the campaign too useful to improve your performance in the game. It does give you a nice in-depht knowledge about the research tree and how to strategically position your units. But that is it. It does not provide you with a lot of information about base building and fast paced skirmish matches, especially what to do in those matches. So, it is not really necessary to play the campaign to cope with skirmish.

Though it is best that you follow all of the other advice that montetank mentioned in his comment ESPECIALLY the shortcuts :)
Can`t agree, Hesterax. I think, if iceman solves the first 5 Alpha-missions he will be prepared for more. The researchtree is the most important. Micromanagement of the units comes automatically. :)
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby iceman11a » 09 Mar 2015, 15:43

This video I made should give you some kind of an idea on what I mean and what is happening. I'm starting off in T1 and using that sample map.

http://youtu.be/uVyxSE3r0Nk

Let me know what you guys think.
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby Hesterax » 09 Mar 2015, 17:51

Thank you iceman11a for taking your time to make a video to visually show us exactly what issues you where facing, it has helped a lot.
Now after analyzing your video, I can conclude that this is mainly due to your lack of knowledge on the research tree. During the 40 minute mark, you failed to research the cyborg factory which in turn lead to the factory extension and, once that is researched, you should have your cobra body. Also, it is essential for you to know that one of the only ways of defeating the ripple rockets (which seems to be your game ending issue) is with VTOL aircraft which you should get when researching the propulsion systems. The only advice I can give you is to study the research tree and complete the campaign like montetank said.
Oh, and when we said that we could defeat these bots in 10 minutes (assuming that you are fighting against nullbot, NOT nexus) it was when using the rush tactic that was in NoQ's video. In that game, you didn't use that strategy and preferred to use a research build which required in depth knowledge of the research tree which you still need to acquire. So, again, it is best that you complete the campaign and study the Warzone 2100 research tree.

Psst: You forgot to pick up an oil barrel that you encountered when searching for derricks :wink:
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby montetank » 09 Mar 2015, 17:56

iceman11a wrote:This video I made should give you some kind of an idea on what I mean and what is happening. I'm starting off in T1 and using that sample map.

http://youtu.be/uVyxSE3r0Nk

Let me know what you guys think.

So-it seems, you didn`t read, what i wrote in my "tutorial". You make to much wrong:
-The first: It is exactly, what i describe-You research to much at the same time. You must not research everything. 2 research-facs are enough. To build them costs money/power. YOU DONT NEED 5!!!. Research, how i describe. At first you need only the mgs and their upgrades. And the engines. You have to build combat units. You dont need weapons against vtols after 4 minutes. Nullbot will build the vtols after about 25-40 minutes, not before. It is essential, that you study the researchtree.
-second: Build your commandcenter not so late :-)
-third: every powerstation is enough for 4 oil. You build a second and a third powerstation and you captured no oil.
Resume: Don`t build so much at the beginning and don`t research all. Do it time by time. Build the second powerstation when you capture the 5th oil. the third when you capture the 9th oil aso.
-fourth: max 2 research facilities are enough. (later-after 6 minutes if you want a 3rd one)
In the vid you build 5 research facilities and 3 powerstations = 650costs -thats absolutely unnecessary. Imagine, that the 2 trucks instead to waste time and money for this building where on their way to capture oil-would be nice, eeh? :wink: . Now i understand, that you run out of money. This screenshot shows you, what is enough. I researched only the mgs and their upgrades until twinmgs and now i am starting to research engineering. Meanwhile the factories produced 12 combatunits. Thats a little army. Could be more, but i am only working with 2 trucks.
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby Hesterax » 09 Mar 2015, 17:59

Double post... Sorry :wink:
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby montetank » 09 Mar 2015, 18:13

Hesterax wrote: The only advice I can give you is to study the research tree and complete the campaign like montetank said.

Hello Hesterax-yes. Now, you see, what i meant? If iceman would try to play the campaign, he would know, that 1 powerstation is enough for 4 oils-he would automatically learn the research tree (not perfect for the skirmish, but .....). I can`t understand, why the new players don`t want to play the campaign. I love it. It is a story. Good enough for the OSCAR :lol2:
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby montetank » 09 Mar 2015, 19:02

iceman11a wrote:This video I made should give you some kind of an idea on what I mean and what is happening. I'm starting off in T1 and using that sample map.

http://youtu.be/uVyxSE3r0Nk

Let me know what you guys think.
Now i watched the whole vid. You are asking " Why don`t i have a better body?" You have-but you forgot the most important :augh:
I wrote that in my tutorial: DON´T forget to build the factory-module on your factories!!!!!! You need for cobras min 1 module for pythons 2 modules. You researched the modules at the beginning. engineering/fuel injektion/powermodule/cyb-factory/factory-module. How should a small factory build a body like cobra or python? Now, i think your mainly problem is answered :D
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby NoQ » 09 Mar 2015, 21:14

Uhm, by "not having to learn too much" i didn't mean that you can move slower than your granma typing her first word document (t_t) Queue up orders with shift-clicks, and observe the game timer to ensure that you take 30 seconds per building with your two initial trucks. You're at least twice as slow.

Professional gamers (in other rts games, where they do exist) do hundreds of sensible clicks per minute (multiple clicks every second); you cannot expect to win if you take 10 seconds to place your generator.

And no, you cannot afford making a generator as your first, second, third, fourth, or even fifth structure. Five structures take only $500, you still have $800, so you can use it a lot better.

If you give me a particular game setup, on a large map or whatever, i can try to record a video of how to beat it.

No, rush isn't any good on large maps. You need a different strategy.

And stop this "game cheats" non-sense. I have studied the code enough to know exactly how it does. Nexus AI still enjoys research-cheating when put on max.difficulty. NullBot AI and Semperfi AI don't cheat, apart from visibility (they know where your stuff is, but that's it, otherwise human can do everything they do). Also, all AIs power-cheat on development nightly releases on Insane difficulty, but not on 3.1.x releases.
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby iceman11a » 09 Mar 2015, 22:12

Guys, thank all of you for all your feed back. Some of it does help

1) As for the research tree. I don't under stand what it is for or how to use it.
2) Game Play

As you saw I needed the power as I was getting oil rigs. I didn't want to wait because of the AI cheating. I wanted as much power so I can research. The more research I do the more options I have. (As all ways, This takes power) Building things doesn't take as much power as making units. and tanks and so on. and as for cheating. If the game cheats. I won't.. Cheating is wrong and all ways has been in my book.

In any map I play. having only one power station is NOT enough. I lose way too much power trying to build a defense and building units to to protect my base. From what I saw. It's not the same in every map I play. The game play changes.

Try playing map fishnet in 4 player using only 2 players. You and an AI. and start from T2. and watch what happens. That should help. Again I don't think you guys play like I do.

It all comes to this. I don't all ways agree with all of you. You stating that I shouldn't build any thing unless I needed it. and I fount out that it doesn't all ways work. Most the the oil rigs I get I have to destroy them. The AI has all of them in 3 minutes after the game starts. What I would like to see is a video to show me step by step what to do with details.
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby montetank » 10 Mar 2015, 00:32

iceman11a wrote:Guys, thank all of you for all your feed back. Some of it does help

1) As for the research tree. I don't under stand what it is for or how to use it.
2) Game Play

As you saw I needed the power as I was getting oil rigs. I didn't want to wait because of the AI cheating. I wanted as much power so I can research. The more research I do the more options I have. (As all ways, This takes power) Building things doesn't take as much power as making units. and tanks and so on. and as for cheating. If the game cheats. I won't.. Cheating is wrong and all ways has been in my book.

In any map I play. having only one power station is NOT enough. I lose way too much power trying to build a defense and building units to to protect my base. From what I saw. It's not the same in every map I play. The game play changes.

Try playing map fishnet in 4 player using only 2 players. You and an AI. and start from T2. and watch what happens. That should help. Again I don't think you guys play like I do.

It all comes to this. I don't all ways agree with all of you. You stating that I shouldn't build any thing unless I needed it. and I fount out that it doesn't all ways work. Most the the oil rigs I get I have to destroy them. The AI has all of them in 3 minutes after the game starts. What I would like to see is a video to show me step by step what to do with details.
There is no cheat!
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wz2100-20150309_231926-Sk-FishNets-T2.jpg
Hmm-nearly 9 minutes-very slow. Once i was faster...funny: the enemy tries to build a vtol factory in my base :-D
wz2100-20150309_231926-Sk-FishNets-T2.jpg (111.73 KiB) Viewed 3756 times
wz2100-20150309_231858-Sk-FishNets-T2.jpg
3-4 seconds before i destroy the last factory.
wz2100-20150309_231858-Sk-FishNets-T2.jpg (106.72 KiB) Viewed 3756 times
In case the WZ-game ends in a draw , the game winner will be determined by penalty shoot-out.
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby Hesterax » 10 Mar 2015, 07:18

iceman11a wrote:Guys, thank all of you for all your feed back. Some of it does help

1) As for the research tree. I don't under stand what it is for or how to use it.
2) Game Play

As you saw I needed the power as I was getting oil rigs. I didn't want to wait because of the AI cheating. I wanted as much power so I can research. The more research I do the more options I have. (As all ways, This takes power) Building things doesn't take as much power as making units. and tanks and so on. and as for cheating. If the game cheats. I won't.. Cheating is wrong and all ways has been in my book.

In any map I play. having only one power station is NOT enough. I lose way too much power trying to build a defense and building units to to protect my base. From what I saw. It's not the same in every map I play. The game play changes.

Try playing map fishnet in 4 player using only 2 players. You and an AI. and start from T2. and watch what happens. That should help. Again I don't think you guys play like I do.

It all comes to this. I don't all ways agree with all of you. You stating that I shouldn't build any thing unless I needed it. and I fount out that it doesn't all ways work. Most the the oil rigs I get I have to destroy them. The AI has all of them in 3 minutes after the game starts. What I would like to see is a video to show me step by step what to do with details.

First of all (still assuming that the bot you play against is nullbot not nexus, because nexus cheats but not nullbot) the AI does not cheat. It may be faster than you, since it is a computer, but the fact is it isn't that good when it comes to combat. The reason you may think it is cheating is probably because it knows pretty much were every oil derrick in the map is (which you can learn) and also can find its way around the research tree (which you also can learn, at least the important parts of it). The difficulty of the AI depends on the difficulty that you set it on in the match setup of course :) I think the only "cheat" that nullbot uses is an all vision cheat which is only used if the bot is set on "Insane".

The research tree (which is on the link that I gave you on my last post) is basically a map of all the things that you can research in Warzone 2100 and what it unlocks, since researching different items unlock other specific items. Being able to memorize at least some of it allows you to know how unlock certain things, like a new body, without wasting time unlocking a lot of unnecessary objects (such as improved wall strength in a map where you don't want to build walls). Note how unlocking the factory extension/upgrade allows you to research the cobra body.

You can play as you like and build what you want, all we where doing was suggesting a different build which can defeat the AI in roughly 10 minutes. But that is your choice, you choose which build is best for you and suits your style of playing the game. However, the way that you played the game in that video requires in-depth knowledge of the research tree which you don't have currently. So we suggested that you try out the rush strategy since all it requires is a rough understanding of the machine gun branch which is shown here: http://creativekara.fr/wp-content/uploads/logiciel_libre/warzone/wz_machinegun_tech_tree.pdf
And if you want all the main branches of the research tree here is the link (hopefully it isn't outdated): http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=9026

Psst: Follow NoQ's advice of shift clicking to queue multiple buildings when building the base so that you can focus on your trucks capturing oil derricks, and I think it's best that you play the campaign (assuming that you haven't completed it). I'm pretty sure NoQ himself created nullbot so he knows it better than the rest of us :)
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby Hesterax » 10 Mar 2015, 07:26

Whoops, think I double posted again. Probably because of me clicking quote instead of edit :stressed:
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby NoQ » 10 Mar 2015, 21:15

fishnet in 4 player using only 2 players. You and an AI. and start from T2
Hmm, this sounds as if you won't even need a generator to win (?) Will have a look.
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Re: Play some larger maps

Postby NoQ » 11 Mar 2015, 21:39

Yeah, that's as i suspected. Even for NullBot, T2/T3 early build orders are so unrefined that you don't really even need to build your base, just proxy-rush through.

I also forgot to mention that on Insane difficulty all AIs cheat through having their advanced-base defenses available in no-bases or medium-bases mode. But on FishNet these defenses don't make much sense anyway, at T2 units fluently pass through them.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLRZVi1wOlM <-- a quick playthrough.

It's slower than what montetank proposed, not sure which approach is more educationally valuable. But this challenge clearly doesn't expose any of the "larger maps" gameplay aspects. By larger, i'd mean something like 1x1 on this map (T1, no bases).
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