Ridiculous Maps

Discussions about AI types, units, tactics & strategy.
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mk-ultra
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Ridiculous Maps

Post by mk-ultra » 14 Jan 2014, 20:15

I don't mean to rant. I'm just really confused, and I want to know if I'm the crazy one.

I've been playing WZ off and on for about a year, and just got into multiplayer a few days ago. Since I've started, I've seen a type of map I've (obviously) never encountered in single player.

Maybe I've just had bad luck, but all of the games I've joined have been played on this generic type of map: 2v2 with bases already established to various degrees, prebuilt research buildings, derricks and power stations to support more construction than I ever could (or ever want to) use. Then, there's a massive swathe of completely barren terrain in the middle. I imagine there's a name for these types of maps, but I don't know it. Surely you know what I'm talking about.

I get what these maps are for: warfare on a massive scale with all the super-cool decked out weapons without worrying about resource management or other potentially tiresome things.

But these maps suck.

It reduces the gameplay to "tech tech tech build build build swarm swarm swarm". Super boring and repetitive. Even winning isn't fun in games like this. It totally robs WZ of the very best parts: tactics and base development. I like the early game resource sniping, and building firebases and maneuvering well assembled squads to achieve tactical goals. I like maneuvering my opponent into a bottle neck, or baiting him into a pincer. There's a dynamism in squabbling over a precious derrick because just one more derrick can mean a win or a loss. There are subtle currents of subterfuge and misdirection and ingenuity when you don't know what your opponent will do because there's so many viable strategies.

With these uber-maps, you don't get any of that. You sit and research and try to fill your unit cap densely with the same predictable designs (lemme guess, you're gonna use mortars, missile arrays, and cannons...) and then when you're ready you and your buddy swarm down to the bottle neck and inch inevitably into your opponent's bases. Or, if you're on the losing side, you watch your army get annihilated by a barrage of missiles out of sight, and then sit for ten minutes waiting for the other guys to wade through the pre-built hardpoints. No tactics, no subtleties, no resource management, no strategic maneuvers. Just tech, build, swarm.

So I guess my question is: why are these the preferred maps, what's the appeal? Doesn't anyone like "normal" warzone?

stiv
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Re: Ridiculous Maps

Post by stiv » 15 Jan 2014, 00:18

Welcome to Warzone! And welcome to the Great Controversy of our age - the schism between those who want to play a dumbed-down version of WZ (and take great offense at that description) and those who want to play WZ in all its glory. You obviously do not fall into the "I just want to play chess with fancy pieces" category.

As you have seen, a lot of people like the dumb version. The solution is to find players who don't. They *are* out there.

mk-ultra
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Re: Ridiculous Maps

Post by mk-ultra » 15 Jan 2014, 01:37

Oops, I didn't mean to stir up any controversy. Reading the forums, I see there really is a lot of discussion around this topic. I've finally been able to play one game on a "normal" map :)

I'll just look for more traditional maps during active hours.

crab_
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Re: Ridiculous Maps

Post by crab_ » 15 Jan 2014, 02:04

Hey guys. Can you say do you actually play warzone or you played two-three games in lobby and this experience has made you overall opinion?
I'm asking because i have my suspicion - I know 2 categories of players who hates "dumb" NTW-style maps:
First category is players who hates "dumb" high-oil because they do not understand that kind of games and have too less game experience in Warzone2100 Universe.
Second category is players with great game experience in Warzone2100 Universe.
[update] Third category is people with slow PC who cannot enjoy massive battles.
mk-ultra wrote: I've been playing WZ off and on for about a year, and just got into multiplayer a few days ago.
Multiplayer is very different from singleplayer. You will find it is easier to start playing MP if you have a full base and lots of oil.
mk-ultra wrote: I get what these maps are for: warfare on a massive scale with all the super-cool decked out weapons without worrying about resource management or other potentially tiresome things.
You cannot make resource management if you have bad understanding of game.
So I recommend you start your MP experience from these "dumb" maps because in these maps you can remember research tree, you can remember possible tank designs, you can remember an effectiveness of different kinds of units.
Warzone is complex thing even at dumb map.

Later, after you got good knowledge of research tree in MP settings and other stuff you can start playing more complicated maps with spreaded oil resources, with different build orders, research strategy etc.
mk-ultra wrote: It reduces the gameplay to "tech tech tech build build build swarm swarm swarm". Super boring and repetitive. Even winning isn't fun in games like this.
Lets see. We have propulsion damage modifiers http://betaguide.wz2100.net/weapons.php ... odifiers=1
Also we have research tree with hundreds of possible research.
Even on maps with full bases you have to select what to research first (http://betaguide.wz2100.net/Research.php)

Each Warzone Player should have one valuable skill - fast research clicking
I mean you need select next research very fast, because you need to research new stuff as soon as possible.
Without "fast research clicking" you cannot play MP at good level. This is plain fact about warzone. Believe me :)
So best place to learn this skill is that "dumb" maps.
How you can play complex maps with spreaded oil if you even do not know how to research right way?

You have to achieve also an another skill - knowing of right tank designs.
We have thousand of possible designs of units. But only few of them are playable in MP.
mk-ultra wrote: I like the early game resource sniping, and building firebases and maneuvering well assembled squads to achieve tactical goals. I like maneuvering my opponent into a bottle neck, or baiting him into a pincer.
You will able to do that kind of things only when you learn early research tree and early unit designs.
Because if you forgot to click at research you can lose game even if you got all resources on map.

If you want i can play with you couple of games at right "low-oil" maps (with spreaded oil resources and early game tactics). Ping me in IRC (between 17:00 - 22:00 GMT)
You should know each "low-oil" player. It is not too much players who enjoy low-oil game.
stiv wrote:..a lot of people like the dumb version.
Do you played that dumb version so much to have right to call it "dumb"?
I'm sorry but I suspect some folks call NTW-style maps as "dumb" but they have never really understand that kind of games.
Thing like " baiting him into a pincer" is quite exists at NTW-style maps.
Also I think team games (5x5) are less enjoyable at classic maps and more enjoyable at NTW-style maps.
Warzone2100 Guide - http://betaguide.wz2100.net/

mk-ultra
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Re: Ridiculous Maps

Post by mk-ultra » 15 Jan 2014, 06:13

crab_,

I didn't mean to give the impression that I'm a good player :)

I'm definitely still a newbie, and maybe it is just a knee-jerk reaction against something I'm unfamiliar with. I've played a few more of these NTW-style (no idea what that stands for) maps, and I still prefer low-oil games. I do see how it can teach you the research tree, and how it has more tactical elements than I gave it credit for.

That being said, I enjoyed getting blown away in a low-oil map more than I enjoyed winning on an NTW map. As you suggested, I'm just going to learn who likes to play these low-oil maps.

I'd also really like to take you up on your 1v1 offer. That's exactly the type of game I've been looking for! Losing can be very educational, and I'm trying to learn the ropes of MP. Just the handful of games I've played has shown me how much I truly have to learn.

Also, please see my second post just a little before yours (it was waiting for approval while you posted). I really didn't mean to strike any nerves. Thanks for the thought-out response.

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NoQ
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Re: Ridiculous Maps

Post by NoQ » 15 Jan 2014, 07:31

Practise on Startup 1x1 against a strong player who is good enough to teach you build orders and understand and explain your mistakes can turn you into a pro in two weeks (depends on your experience in other RTS games). So yeah, try to ping crab. Then you'd easily learn how to play the dumb maps as well, as all they're about is fast thoughtless clicking, and a slight adjustment of strategy.

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Re: Ridiculous Maps

Post by themac » 15 Jan 2014, 14:12

Well, I bought Warzone back in 1999 (?), pre-ordered after a quick test play given by a paper gaming magazine. I really love unsymetric maps with all sort of terrain, lakes and mountains. I am curious if it would be fun to get an additional gaming mode where all oil derricks are scattered around the map randomly every time you play the map again. While you can remember the terrain, you still have to explore the map which can be an addictive part of the game too.

stiv
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Re: Ridiculous Maps

Post by stiv » 16 Jan 2014, 01:06

Do you played that dumb version so much to have right to call it "dumb"?
If you are offended by the word 'dumb', don't be. The phrase 'dumbed down' is a common English expression (it even has its own Wikipedia page!). It refers to something that has been simplified or reduced in complexity. And *that* is exactly what high-oil maps are.

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Re: Ridiculous Maps

Post by Rommel » 16 Jan 2014, 05:25

+1 insightful for what crab_ said

-1 flamebait for the dumb remark (pun intended)
Moving back instead of forward
Seems to me absurd
~
Metallica - Eye of the beholder

crab_
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Re: Ridiculous Maps

Post by crab_ » 16 Jan 2014, 08:03

@stiv I'm sorry I have bad english, i use Google Translate :oops:
Well. I was offended a bit with that "dubm" definition, i did not know the difference between 'dumb' and 'dull'.
Not sure if 'dull' more offensive than dumb, but it sound similar (google translator translates: "dumb' = "dull" = "stupid").
mk-ultra wrote:Oops, I didn't mean to stir up any controversy. Reading the forums, I see there really is a lot of discussion around this topic. I've finally been able to play one game on a "normal" map :)
Yes, unfortunately that discussion about map settings are long and unending. I think we have to try to find out how to make normal traditional (classic low-oil) maps more popular.
mk-ultra wrote: I'll just look for more traditional maps during active hours.
You can host games by yourself. Each man who hosts a traditional map can involve more players in that kind of games.
You can find lots of low-oil maps here: viewtopic.php?f=49&t=6005
Warzone2100 Guide - http://betaguide.wz2100.net/

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Re: Ridiculous Maps

Post by Bobnmike » 30 Mar 2014, 23:34

I have a lot of trouble finding people who want to play low oil games

themac
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Re: Ridiculous Maps

Post by themac » 31 Mar 2014, 00:26

Play with Imo/themac. That´s me. I use real maps only. :)

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