Starting power level amount

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aubergine
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by aubergine » 15 Mar 2013, 17:42

There are already plenty of over-simplified games out there for such people to play. And they'll play such games once or twice to satisfy their ego and need for instant gratification, then get bored and never play such games again.

The fact that we have people wanting to make WZ easier for newbies shows that the way WZ is, with it's high barrier to adoption, is what they love about the game. The solution is not to make WZ more basic, but instead to improve the usability of it's complexities (eg. scriptable UI so we can visualise research tree better, etc).
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Originway » 15 Mar 2013, 20:39

scriptable UI is going to take how long? 2?3? or more years?
something needs to be done now to get a higher player base instead of having a group of hard core people deciding what should be done

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by vexed » 17 Mar 2013, 04:45

We are now talking about that Warzone requires some skill to actually play it, and that is a bad thing ? :hmm:
While I suppose it would be possible to have a 'arcade' mode that does away with what is essentially Warzone as we know it (with having the ability to design units, and the huge tech tree), then, it wouldn't really be Warzone, now would it ?
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by cumandgetit » 17 Mar 2013, 05:02

alex lee was a member of the pumpkin team that created warzone.
here you may wanna read carefully all he had to say in 2009 -
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=122&p=31591#p31591

or - pardonne moi mes faux pas !
Last edited by cumandgetit on 17 Mar 2013, 14:40, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 17 Mar 2013, 05:04

The closest thing that I know to playing an arcade mode in a Warzone 2100 mod that allows players to design units may be Contingency, with the T1 tier-limiting addon enabled. That tier-limiting mod would restrict players to using T1 stuff like Lancers, Heavy Cannons, Mortars, Flamers, Heavy Machineguns, and Hover Propulsion, but not things like Howitzers, Ripple Rockets, Inferno Flamers, Tank Killers, Hyper-Velocity Cannons, Assault Guns, Lasers, Railguns, EMPs, Laser Satellites, CB Radar, or VTOLs.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by effigy » 22 Mar 2013, 00:26

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:The closest thing that I know to playing an arcade mode in a Warzone 2100 mod that allows players to design units may be Contingency, with the T1 tier-limiting addon enabled. That tier-limiting mod would restrict players to using T1 stuff like Lancers, Heavy Cannons, Mortars, Flamers, Heavy Machineguns, and Hover Propulsion, but not things like Howitzers, Ripple Rockets, Inferno Flamers, Tank Killers, Hyper-Velocity Cannons, Assault Guns, Lasers, Railguns, EMPs, Laser Satellites, CB Radar, or VTOLs.
I think it's been suggested in the past that T3 mode be revised to have everything researched. Maybe that'd would be enough for an "arcade mode."
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Originway » 22 Mar 2013, 19:06

effigy wrote: I think it's been suggested in the past that T3 mode be revised to have everything researched. Maybe that'd would be enough for an "arcade mode."
does anyone have a breakdown of what T2 and T3 have already researched?

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by aubergine » 23 Mar 2013, 03:52

@Originway: The tech levels are defined by cam2tech.vlo and cam3tech.vlo

I posted some rambling thoughts on tech levels a while ago while I was trying to get my head around tech levels.

Note also that base type setting (no bases / basic bases / advanced bases) defines what T1 gives you.

I still find tech levels somewhat confusing, in particular it's not clear to end-users what the effects of tech level are and the UI seems to associate tech level with maps (are there different base layouts depending on tech levels stored within a single map?).
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rommel » 24 Mar 2013, 04:57

I have noticed in T3 that you have items available even though the research path still needs to be done - like ripple rockets are there but you still haven't researched mortar targeting computer
Moving back instead of forward
Seems to me absurd
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by effigy » 24 Mar 2013, 05:56

Rommel wrote:I have noticed in T3 that you have items available even though the research path still needs to be done - like ripple rockets are there but you still haven't researched mortar targeting computer
There is inconstancy/unbalance like this in T2, and T1 with normal/advanced bases, aswell.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by BunkerBlaster » 25 Mar 2013, 05:04

vexed wrote:Just what is the main reason people play high oil maps ?
Is it that the starting energy amount is too low, even when set to high power levels ? :hmm:
Low oil maps are fun but many players do not preview the map and do not know where the oil is. If I win easily, I find no fun in being the one with the victory.

The main reason people play high oil maps is not because of the starting amount, it's the constant amount. The ability to build defense or produce a certain amount units so that battle can take place with more than just a few units in a reasonable amount of time.
NoQ wrote:But there's other thing that can't be solved: why do people play flat maps?
I think it's because of FPS. Terrain does not effect FPS that I'm aware of. Map makers that spend the time to make terrain usually also spend the time to add other things that effect the count me. It's the map size, buildings, amount of units and eye candy etc. that effect the MP game. I don't think they prefer that maps be flat, they just happen to be flat. One of the things I use to do was I grouped the maps in folders per amount of players, maps size, and the amount of oil. Then I would take one group of maps and look for the lowest "count me". The map with the lowest "count me" would be the best map to host MP that would play at the fasted FPS on everyone’s machine. They are not always flat, but they are mostly flat due to the above reason.
vexed wrote:I am trying to figure out why people play those type of maps, knowing that they will have a adverse playing experience with them because with those type of maps, things can get really, really slow.
I'm scratching my head here. If you know there is an adverse playing experience then why do you ask? Why not make the changes to make the game stable and playable. I wonder how many players actually download the game but don't come back to play due to adverse playing experience. The QTY of oil and number of units should have been reduced for the 3.1 release as those have been a problem since being introduced in ver 2.3. The future beta's could have more oil and unit's for testing and that would make everyone happy. Or is it there will be no more betas? You want the official release to be as stable and solid as possible.

The original game, high oil was 20 per player. In 2.3 series it was changed to 30 and then to 40 per player. That was a mistake. It caused problems with the 2.3 series and it's been a problem ever since. The Count me is also very important and the amount of oil and units effect playability. The renderer is about 10fps slower under load than the 2.3 series and the official release is about 20 fps slower for some reason, so playing 3.1 MP is not doable for me on either of my 2.7 and 2.8 GHZ Window XP duo core machines, both with Nvidia graphics, one with on board shared graphics and the other with card. FPS is slow on both 32 bit and 64 bit machines. (I no longer have linux).

It's not really my FPS that concerns me the most, it's other players FPS because there are many that have slower machines than mine. It's not enjoyable to invest time into a game and then find out 20 or 30 minutes later somebody has a slow machine that effects my game also.

May I suggest the following

1) Fix whatever is causing the official 3.1 release FPS problem that did not exist in the 3.1 betas.

2) Reduce the amount of oil per player to 20. Yes a few players may get mad, but Warzone can't handle it. The 2.3 series didn't do well with 30 and especially 40 oil per player either. 40 oil per player is just ridiculous, 30 makes for a very fast game, 20 oil per player is fast enough and I believe it should be the cap. If that doesn't sound like an option then make the max amount of power gen 5 or whatever you want, for both the 8 and 10 player maps.

3) Reduce the amount of units back to the original. I think it was 99 were it was changed to 130 back in 2.3 which was another mistake. Don't need 130 units to have a good battle. It only causes FPS issues along with to much oil and a high count me. If the amount of units are reduced, the amount of time between each battle will be less which is what players really want, for those that wait until they are maxed.

If 2, and 3 are also changed. more players will be able to enjoy what 3.1 is really about, the new renderer and netcode. Also if the above changes are made and it goes well it would open the door to host maps with a higher count me and may even open the possibility to have more players on a map. Maybe 12 or 14, who knows.

I would love to be able to play the MP game again, so I can only hope that #1 is fixed with another official release. Otherwise I'll wait until I can afford another linux box.

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by aubergine » 25 Mar 2013, 16:08

Rather than hard-coding limits on number of oils / units, why not have options on the limits screen in game setup?

Thus, you could define the max number of oil derricks per player and/or the max number of units per player. In MP, if worried about fps or lag caused by "too much stuff on the map", etc., the game host could simply change the limits to suit their preference.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by BunkerBlaster » 25 Mar 2013, 22:00

aubergine wrote:Rather than hard-coding limits on number of oils / units, why not have options on the limits screen in game setup?

Thus, you could define the max number of oil derricks per player and/or the max number of units per player. In MP, if worried about fps or lag caused by "too much stuff on the map", etc., the game host could simply change the limits to suit their preference.
You did read that I'm talking about the official release right?

Your suggestion does not change the fact that the game is not realistic with high oil. The majority of people are going to play what everyone else is. Both new and old players don't like the unrealistic slow game play. At some point in time the Warzone community should stop expecting the developers to do miracles with an engine that it is not capable of. What players want the most is the game to play correctly and realistic at any setting, and by supporting limits that exceed the engines capability is doing more harm than good.

It seems decisions are made thinking the majority are those that play the game beyond it's limits. Ever consider the majority are those that don't play the game because the the limits exceed the engines capacity therefore delivering an adverse gaming experience?

How many times have you tried a game or application and deleted it without leaving a comment?

Most people if they don't have anything good to say they are not going to say anything at all. They will download the game, be unsatisfied with the adverse game play and not play again. And IMO that is what has been happening since the amount of oil and units were changed in ver 2.3. It's bad marketing so to speak. Your solution is basicly saying your ok with that.

The goal should not be to only please those that enjoy 40 oil games. The goal should be to get good reviews by the gaming community. Your not going to loose players by making the change, those stuck on playing games that exceed the engines capability could still play that way using a mod or future betas. As I previously said, with an official release gameplay should be as realistic as the game engine allows without exceeding those limits in any way.

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 25 Mar 2013, 22:27

@BunkerBlaster: it's the map maker's decision as to whether or not the map would provide 40 oil per player. Thus, the map maker should be at fault instead of the developers. So far, the devs seem to be refraining from including any NTW-styled maps, or maps with extreme amounts of oil per player. Also, many of the community's mapmakers, such as NoQ, tmp500, and Merowingg to name a few, design plenty of maps that don't even have that much oil.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by vexed » 26 Mar 2013, 05:01

I am locking this thread for now, since it got way OT from what I had in mind.

When I get time, I will split out what needs to be split out. :stressed:

If you want to continue some discussion, then start a new topic please.
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