Starting power level amount

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Iluvalar
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Iluvalar » 03 Mar 2013, 18:47

Reg312 wrote: "high oil games" cannot be "fixed", but low-oil gameplay can be made more friendly to beginners. why not? why why why?
Because that's directly related to the amount of skill needed to master it. And the process by which one takes decisions in order to find the unknown optimal solution to a complex problem is what we call a GAME. The more complex, the more hard it is, the more the players are compelled to try again. The depth of a game is what make the replayability of it.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Reg312 » 03 Mar 2013, 19:48

Iluvalar wrote:
Reg312 wrote: "high oil games" cannot be "fixed", but low-oil gameplay can be made more friendly to beginners. why not? why why why?
Because that's directly related to the amount of skill needed to master it. And the process by which one takes decisions in order to find the unknown optimal solution to a complex problem is what we call a GAME. The more complex, the more hard it is, the more the players are compelled to try again. The depth of a game is what make the replayability of it.
pff... "amount of skill"?? :stressed: :stressed:
"hardeness of game" is equal to skill of most active part of MP players.
So making UI easier, making classic games more friendly involves more players to that games.

Easier to adapt => More players => More pro-players => you need MORE SKILL to win over them!!!
........
why devs and you cant understand that simple thing?:stressed:


Another problem is fact: we have 1 good working tactics in the game, so it become b

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rman Virgil » 03 Mar 2013, 20:17

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vexed wrote:I am trying to figure out why people play those type of maps, knowing that they will have a adverse playing experience with them because with those type of maps, things can get really, really slow.
Got it. Cuts to the heart of a long-standing, prime issue. I will start by reframing the question.

Why have a few score diehard MPers outta the million plus that have procured the game over the last 14 years, insisted on playing the game in a manner it was NEVER concieved, designed and built for ?

To that re-framing let me posit these corallaries:

Let that tiny minority follow their blissful insistence but let them not dictate the core development of the game.

It would be very useful to identify the reasons why the majority of the million plus don't cotton to WZ MP as it exists.

As far as game modes contribute to longevity, WZ MP mode has NOT kept the game alive for 14 years. CAM and SKI modes have. Again it would be useful to identify the reasons for that.

There are a number of reasons for that initial re-frameing question and set of corrolaries, but I am only gonna state one obvious practical consideration at this time. To truly rectify the shortfall issues that manifest in this type MP gameplay(high-oil, flat, 8-10 player maps) you'd have to port WZ to a new game engine and supporting MP scheme. The other reasons I'll get to in due course and they go to the core of the gameplay WZ WAS originally designed for which is also totally consistent with the tech level of its war machine, unlike this minority insistence to shoe-horn gameplay into the tacs of a primitive war machine tech level.

========>

Reg312's motivation breakdown is an instructive matrix to deconstruct so let's give it a go. Along the way we'll also address my re-framing question in greater detail, along with the 3 corrolaries.

Reg312 wrote:here is some reasons why high-oil:

- grand battles. people like grand battles.
Include me in that group! The clash of grand armies. An awe-inspiring game play experience, without a doubt. :D

The only thing for me is that when I want that type strat & tac war gameplay experience I don't turn to WZ.

I'll just mention one strat game designed for grand army battles that I go to for that kind of experience because it was designed and built from the ground up to provide that type gameplay experience.

Right off the top the battle engine is built to handle 57,000 combat units.

This successfull franchise is still going strong after 13 years and a dozen iterations (main games in different historical eras up to the 18th century plus expansion packs throughout). Of course I'm refering to the Total War series.

But you say - "Wait ! the Total War games donot include high-tech, modern warfare, like WW 2."

That's because the WW 2 game market is super saturated. Why enter that over crowded market when you've already sucessfully carved out historical military eras that have hardly been touched to create the gameplay experience of grand armies engaging in massive battles.

And now we move on to other reason the "Total War" series has stuck to the Pre-WW 2 era.

After WW 2, warfare begins to subsume doctrine that is reflective of certain high-tech that CHANGES the way war is waged from all previous eras and ushers in 21st Century Century maneuver warfare which is NOT, I repeat not, the monolithic frontline of grand armies massively clashing. 21st century warfare is actually the END of that way of conducting warfare.

We are already well into 21st century, high-tech, warfare which is paralled by the high tech war machine in WZ 2100. WZ was concieved, designed and built (up to a point, which we'll get to shortly) to wage 21st century warfare.

Where WZ falls short of fully realizing waging 21st century war is a consequence not of failed vision, design or intent but rather the two-pronged curtailment in the dev of WZ's 21st century warfare components by way of economic constraints imposed by it's publisher-distributor and by the SW-HW tech constraints of '97-'98. None of these constraints exist any longer. Indeed, replacing WZ script with the JS API is the single HUGEst step in removing some of the main constraints (the others would be reconstituted camera scheme and UI widgets).

What is 21st century warfare ?

It is, in brief, coordinated multi-vector, variable velocity, maneuver enabled by high tech that didn't exist pre-WW 2.... same high-tech incorporated by Pumpkin in the fictional 22nd century world of WZ. But the key is more granular "Command / Control" because what results from power without that degree of control is the pre-WW 2 type warfare that the "Total War" franchise is king of and that WZ will never excell at - nor need it or should it. This is as much a core part of WZs unique identity as a strategy game as are its massive tech tree and unit design GPM..... it just never gets formally acknowledged as such.

For a fuller explication of 21st century warfare you can get a start here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network-centric_warfare

How this translates and relates to key curtailed WZ GPMs is covered elsewhere in exhaustive detail along with the direct relationship to the new JS API, enhanced camera scheme and reconstituted UI widgets.
- team-play. 5x5 low-oil game is quite equal to 1x1 on high oil.
 

Covered in above section.
- massive using of various tech. in low-oil many games ends with twin mg.
Pumpkin's attempt to deal with this was by offering the option to start a game at T2 or T3 instead of trying to play through T1-T3 in a single game.
- artillery playable only on high-oil.
Ditto.
- defensive style playable on high oil. On low-oil defensive tactic is unplayable mostly.
Ditto.
- more intuitive play. You just build base and make armies and fight. At low-oil your first move is truck race for oil.
Indeed.

With the advent of v.3.2 the technology will be in place to begin to fully realize Pumpkin's 21st century warfare original design goals that were curtailed and scaled back for the reasons detailed above. These reasons amount to the shortfalls I mentioned in my previous post that created the conditions that mappers and MPers have endeavored to adapt to over the last 14 years which has resulted in no significant active audience growth over the intitial retail release (which prompted Eidos to pull the plug after 3 months of under performance)inspite of the million plus units distributed over those 14 years. The game has been free for years and it still doesn't have the audience it merits for the same reasons it didn't when it cost $30-$40 bucks in '99 - to wit, key 21st century war making GPM components remain in thier curtailed state.

Now if v.3.2 begins to fully realize Pumpkin's original 21st century warfare GPM designs it doesn't mean those who want to play the game as if it were designed like the "Total War" franchise for WW 2 and earlier monolithic frontline maneuver can't continue to play it in that fashion. They still will be able to. But what it will mean is that there will be thousands upon thousands of new MPers that will dl the game and hang around to thoroughly enjoy playing it in true 21st century warfare fashion . And as result of that WZ will finally achieve the popularity and attention in the greater RTS world that drove Pumpkin to create it in the first place to stand apart from all other RTSs.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Iluvalar » 03 Mar 2013, 23:20

Reg312 wrote: Easier to adapt => More players => More pro-players => you need MORE SKILL to win over them!!!
That's so wrong in so many way ! :augh:

First you assume that those new players would play as much long in a game that offer no more challenges nor room for improvement.

Second you suppose that the only thing required to win is SKILL, but unfortunately you can also win by LUCK. And that what would happen in a game that offer less possibility to be stronger than the beginners.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Reg312 » 03 Mar 2013, 23:45

@Iluvalar
I think you are not quite understand.
My proposal was a just make game more friendly for beginners.
So i dont understand with what you arguing now? keep game unfriendly or what?
I clearly remember when i did not liked low-oil games for many reasons, and i think my feelings was common for any new player.
Reg312 wrote: Easier to adapt => More players => More pro-players => you need MORE SKILL to win over them!!!
Here i meant a chain of "cause - effect" items.
Making game more friendly probably can increase number of players.

@Iluvalar
"Skill vs Luck" - i just don't understand what you saying about.

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Iluvalar » 04 Mar 2013, 04:26

Reg312 wrote: @Iluvalar
"Skill vs Luck" - i just don't understand what you saying about.
The gap between the "noobs" and the "pro" is equal to the amount of skill you can acquire and use in the game. The two are the very same thing.

And here, skill is the very only thing you can keep from game to game. You can't build bigger base, learn new move, improve your stats or anything else. The only attract to this game on the long run is to be challenged and improve your skill. We must keep a serious space for personal improvement in this game !
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by vexed » 04 Mar 2013, 04:29

Rman Virgil wrote:.
As far as game modes contribute to longevity, WZ MP mode has NOT kept the game alive for 14 years. CAM and SKI modes have. Again it would be useful to identify the reasons for that.
I'll get back to this topic when I have more time, but I just wanted to add, people seem to forget the fact that we have over 67,000 downloads from SF for 3.1.0, and an unknown amount from other places, and that includes distros. I am guessing we are over 100K easy.

While the lobby has been busier than it ever was in the past, we aren't even close to having that many online players.
This tells us that the vast majority of the people that play Warzone are either not interested in online play, or they find it too daunting.

It don't help when some of the known clans belittle "n00bs" either, by kicking them out of games when they first join for being named 'player', or trash talk them in IRC or in-game.

The same can be said about many thing concerning the game, like balance, or whatever else. If there was really that big of a problem with __insert problem here__, you would think that people would want to voice their opinion, but, right now, we have the same regulars doing the complaining all the time. This isn't too say that we don't have issues with how the game is currently doing things, it is just a reminder that tons of people don't have a problem with it.

Anyway, that is just some food for thought... will continue this topic at a later date. :stressed:
/facepalm ...Grinch stole Warzone🙈🙉🙊 contra principia negantem non est disputandum
Super busy, don't expect a timely reply back.

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Reg312 » 04 Mar 2013, 08:08

@vexed brazilian downloads? :roll: (may be add captcha on next version and see what happen)
is any other way to estimate number of players and their interest?
Also there is no problem with graphics, campaign, scripting system, why improve this if no one complain? :ninja:
Count of online players should be directly relevant to total count of players.
Majority of players never visit forums. Many players also have language problems.
vexed wrote: you would think that people would want to voice their opinion, but, right now, we have the same regulars doing the complaining all the time
Ok i stop complaining, you devs never listen :ninja: even cannot belive in lag, which was noticed by many players in lobby :augh:

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rommel » 04 Mar 2013, 09:41

The question is not about what is the right way to play WZ. No matter how much people try to say that high oil is the wrong way to play WZ, blah blah - the fact remains that some people like it and will continue to play WZ like this.

Also this talk about high oil being noob friendly, well it is not so much like this. Noobs will be owned if they are not well versed in the game. In fact most times noobs are not even allowed to play when there are decent players about - they are normally politely (or in some cases not so politely) told to go practice NTW and then come back when they can play - that's right, one noob on a team is like having one less player on a team, definitely not so noob friendly - as it should be with a game as complex as WZ.

In regards to saying that T3 in low oil is a "fix" for lowoil games most times ending in twin mg ownage... no way... if it was just a case of unlocking tech as fast as possible, most NTW games would start at T3... well they don't, most with decent players involved start in T1 as research tactics play a big part... you gotta know your tech tree, gotta have a strat.

Oil while substantial, is not infinite in most cases, you still run low... you have to know how to build your base (you have to KNOW where your towel is!), it is not just a matter of building 5 factories and churning out units... you are starting from scratch, this includes no derricks. So at the same time you are building a base (FULL BASE), researching - then creating army, making defenses, attacking... all this with 5 res slots on the go, managing 15 trucks - it is very complex and consumes all concentration. Remember you are researching from T1 to T3 all in one game, you fall behind in res or don't know your tech tree you are done for...

In the end everyone is on a level playing field, it is not about knowing where the oil is, or knowing tricks of the map... it is about knowing the game, knowing what to res, what to build, how to maneuver your army - many decisions to make in the split second, very fast pace.

Many are wondering why do these NTW players like flat, featureless maps, why do they play them over and over again? Well I will tell you now, it is not about the map for people that love NTW, it is about game play.. which in it's self is a great compliment to WZ2100, that it doesn't need fancy graphics or maps, or even a story - it's the actual gameplay that keeps "some" people hooked imho.

I am really getting the feeling that many here are not well versed in high oil type NTW games, very evident in the type of comments being made. Having a handful of games on NTW high oil does not qualify a person to make any informed statement. Go play against the tomatos or any of the other pro NTW players if you think it is only a noobs undertaking, you will soon learn this is not the case.

I have no problem with peeps that like low oil, but if that was all there was in WZ I doubt I would be into it as much.
Rman Virgil wrote: Stuff about Total War.
In regards to Total War and the remarks about the lack of perceived future precedence for massed units on the battlefield, not everything has to be based on fact, it is a game and if the game play is good what is the problem with it not being based on a realistic model for future warfare? Low oil does not make it any more realistic than high oil imo.

On another note I will have to dust off medieval total war again soon, after playing NTW I think I will be able to kick ass in that game - I used to play mostly the map game and auto resolve the battles, I think I will be able to fight better now after playing WZ :geek:
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rman Virgil » 04 Mar 2013, 11:27

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Nothing I said would prevent peeps from playing WZ however they want. They've been playing NTW for 14 years now and they can persist for another 14 years. I'm all about continuing WZ creators original & curtailed GPM designs which ARE 21st Century warfare and which inturn would surely expand the games audience by offering a much broader, & richer, tac & strat spectrum of combat gameplay that is at least equally compelling with what is possible in its present unfinished state.. There is no downside I can see. Its all win-win.
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Originway » 04 Mar 2013, 20:40

Reg312 wrote:@vexed brazilian downloads? :roll: (may be add captcha on next version and see what happen)
is any other way to estimate number of players and their interest?
Also there is no problem with graphics, campaign, scripting system, why improve this if no one complain? :ninja:
Count of online players should be directly relevant to total count of players.
Majority of players never visit forums. Many players also have language problems.
what do you mean by brazilian downloads? you want to add captcha to the game?
vexed wrote: you would think that people would want to voice their opinion, but, right now, we have the same regulars doing the complaining all the time
Ok i stop complaining, you devs never listen :ninja: even cannot belive in lag, which was noticed by many players in lobby :augh:
many players with slower machines? many players playing the game at a higher screen res than they can handle? many players using this excuse? :ninja:
never listen? :hmm:

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Originway » 04 Mar 2013, 20:49

Rman Virgil wrote:.

Nothing I said would prevent peeps from playing WZ however they want. They've been playing NTW for 14 years now and they can persist for another 14 years. I'm all about continuing WZ creators original & curtailed GPM designs which ARE 21st Century warfare and which inturn would surely expand the games audience by offering a much broader, & richer, tac & strat spectrum of combat gameplay that is at least equally compelling with what is possible in its present unfinished state.. There is no downside I can see. Its all win-win.
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the problem is the game is too difficult if you are just thrown in
the tutorial sucks donkey balls
there is no in game tech tree
there is no way to communicate with people in warzone and you need irc program to do that
there is no help mode for new people
if you don't put in the time to learn the game then it is doom and they give up
14 year old game :shock: ?
the original game didn't crash right? what went wrong now? crashes still happen and things got much worse in path finding than any other major release so you have to micromanage all units now :annoyed:

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Rommel » 04 Mar 2013, 23:56

Originway wrote: crashes still happen and things got much worse in path finding than any other major release so you have to micromanage all units now :annoyed:
I have to agree, you create a compact base and watch all the trucks get bottlenecked - it is at the stage where you need to put at least 2 squares around buildings. It seems that units cannot tell if a path is blocked at all, you would think if a path was blocked by other units they would go another way

Why not let trucks pass thru each other and make say a cap on how many can build one thing, or better yet just let them all merge and build... not sure how much this would effect game dynamics, but hell it will only be significant in NTW anyway and peeps there love convenience :) In fact I would love to see trucks merged when all are working on the same thing, and then unmerge when it is finished or cancelled.... trouble is that it would make it hard to select trucks when you want to move just a few of them to a different job
Moving back instead of forward
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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by effigy » 05 Mar 2013, 03:52

It's unfortunate, but WZ is simply not a game anyone can just jump into, and learn quickly on the fly.
Rman Virgil wrote:.

Nothing I said would prevent peeps from playing WZ however they want. They've been playing NTW for 14 years now and they can persist for another 14 years. I'm all about continuing WZ creators original & curtailed GPM designs which ARE 21st Century warfare and which inturn would surely expand the games audience by offering a much broader, & richer, tac & strat spectrum of combat gameplay that is at least equally compelling with what is possible in its present unfinished state.. There is no downside I can see. Its all win-win.
.
:hmm: I'll attempt to rephrase further: Saying that "high oil" is "noob friendly" isn't the same as saying that "high oil is for noobs." I'll elaborate that GPM (Game Play Mechanics) were designed with commanders and "low oil" in mind. I credit this to most disagreements about balance.

:3 Reg & Rman get a +1 from me on their comments as a whole

:o Rommel: your comments about "playing" NTW are true, though mostly off topic.

:augh: Personally, it took me a solid year of playing Squaredv7 & NTW before I found stock maps, and later user made low oil maps to offer a better gaming experience for me, and most of the people I was playing with often at that time.

:ninja: One of the biggest obstacles I had to overcome when I started playing MP games was learning how different the MP world was from the campaign. I recall from conversations I've had in the past that to really bring the two together would involve redoing the campaign to fit "current" weapon/body balance and finding a way to make commanders both easier and more efficient to use/produce in MP.

:stressed: A big part of having a successful game starting as T2/T3 in the current (and past) balance is mostly knowing what's good, since in all the balance adjustments nothing in these game modes have been touched (Heavy Cannon being available for production from the start in T2, for example (countless other tech available without having their preq's).

:lecture: Still, I think the biggest troubles for new players as a whole is learning the tech tree (knowing what research path to take(and what that path is) and what counters what, or how many licks it take to get the center of a tootsie-pop), upgrading weapons/body's/structures, and learning to manage labs/factories with whatever resources available. Ironically, the first thing that pops to mind to help with some of this is in game balloon tips. They could be used to not only clutter an already outdated and inefficient GUI, but would be more noticeable than the flashing Research icon we get when we have a lab that's not being used.

:arrow: Oh right... starting power...

:!: First, I agree high power maps are good for new players, in WZ's current state. This is best place for them to experiment, due to the larger quantity of resources (as reiterated many times above). More resources = less resource management = faster navigation of the tech tree.

:?: AFAIK, from what I can recall of what I've been told, the current power level options in the game menu are related to how fast we accumulate power. I've only noticed a small difference in this setting when playing low oil maps.

:idea: How about making the 3 button power level option into a slider, starting from what we have now as "low power" and [not]ending with infinite power. Yes, small maps will get crowded fast, however, I don't believe this would change the game for experienced players as I expect most will prefer to keep the slider at today's "high power" (irony?) setting.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Starting power level amount

Post by Originway » 05 Mar 2013, 21:10

how do we make the tech tree easier for new people?
right now it is a race up the tech tree and if you are late you usually lose

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