Should campaign be improved?

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bendib
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by bendib » 11 Jan 2013, 11:45

2.3.9 will not last forever. You might as well say the same for 1.10! How about you enjoy your new campaign as a LOADED MOD?
I have no objections to that whatsoever. I do have objections to changing the campaign that ships with the game permanently!
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by bendib » 11 Jan 2013, 11:48

Emdek wrote:Can't you just agree to have both modern and classic versions of campaign shipped with game?
Both done using JS and available on the same level of menu?

Moreover, AFAIK for long time (years) campaign is no longer identical to original one, like some changes in Nexus weapons in final mission etc.
I think that would be clutter, but as long as both are shipped with the game without using seperate mods, that's fine. If the campaign was modified by pumpkin, that's fine, but if it was modified by another team, I want a list of changes and Legacy will revert them.
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Emdek » 11 Jan 2013, 11:53

bendib, if modernized campaign will be such mod then nearly nobody will play it (unless we would have built-in system to download it and good way to inform user about such possibility).

And if you want list of changes you will need to dig through forums (I believe it was listed somewhere) or through control version system logs or simply compare them, mission by mission... Maybe someone has such list without need to do one of above.
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Rman Virgil
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Rman Virgil » 11 Jan 2013, 12:08

Emdek wrote:Can't you just agree to have both modern and classic versions of campaign shipped with game?
Both done using JS and available on the same level of menu?
For sure. Was originally suggested a few weeks back.
Moreover, AFAIK for long time (years) campaign is no longer identical to original one, like some changes in Nexus weapons in final mission etc.
Dunno about that. I've only played clearly designated CAM mods or v.1.10 in the last several years.
Also I believe that if original creators would carry on this game for more years then they would also make changes to campaign but most probably they wouldn't ship original version.
They did indeed have plans. It was a sequel (includeing new CAM) called WZ 2120. 2100 was not gonna be revisted. I asked in June of 1999 in the context of Commander A.I...

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Conflating tech progress with art evolution is a mistake. Rodin's "Thinker" didnot supplant Michalangelo's "David" cause it was done several hundred years after. I believe the crux issue we are debating is the original CAMs art component, not its undergirding implementation tech.

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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by zydonk » 11 Jan 2013, 13:15

A general point. Both HalfLife and Stalker - to name two other truly canonical games - have been completely refurbished by dedicated fans while leaving the original gameplay intact. This was done out of respect for these games, as a recognition of their original worth.

There have been two streams in the recent history of WZ, one that has attempted to refurbish it and another that in effect wanted to turn WZ into some other game, like C&C or TA. The refurbishment project went as planned up to 2.3.9 and a lot was done to improve the enjoyment of the game. The second stream has been a disaster that reflects badly on the judgement of those who took charge of WZ development, that they should have let such sheer immaturity loose on WZ.

A basic problem here is that lack of respect for WZ. How many of those who have had a hand in mangling WZ ever played the original game? I'd say very few. The people who have restored games like HL and Stalker were players of these games. They refurbished these games so they could continue to play them as they had always played them.

Does the destruction of WZ matter? No. It has happened, no point regretting that fact. People just move on somewhere else. Have you noticed how empty the Forum is now? You can count on one hand the number of regular contributors. Much of the "blue sky" discussion cannot be taken seriously.

Why am I still here? Force of habit. I no longer hope for significant change. I suspect the dev are seriously reviewing the state of WZ 3.1, but I also suspect that they are coming to realise how little can be done under present circumstances to correct the mess. Even Legacy, for all its honourable intentions, is trapped within the limitations of the 3.1 offering. We may in fact be at the end of the WZ Project.

How sad.

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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by bendib » 11 Jan 2013, 14:31

I disagree. I do feel that the Warzone 2100 Project has hit a giant roadblock that could cause a massive codebase change and eventually the reorganization of the development team and perhaps a new group will inherit the canonical brand completely, but I don't think it's the end of the canonical Warzone 2100, at least not in gameplay and continued development. I will personally see that this game does not die. However, in defense of my project, the terrain rendering engine in Legacy is somewhat turdy, I will not deny this, but you can't deny the enormous strides that my project has made in a very short amount of time. The 3.1 codebase is, surprisingly, mostly superior to 2.3 from a programming perspective, and when I can re-add anything I see fit like I already do, what's the problem? I see you have not yet gotten your hands on Alpha 2. I should also note I have gained two more developers for the project, though they have yet to contribute (like a day ago they joined). More changes are to come to Legacy, and I'd appreciate that rather than giving up all hope, you at least monitor my project.

Zydonk, when I play Legacy 1.0 Alpha 2, I feel at home. Legacy, to me, plays like 2.3.9 with extra features, and when I revert to 2.3.9, I feel in a primitive, unsettling environment. Food for thought.

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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Rman Virgil » 11 Jan 2013, 14:40

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I see most of what you've expressed, zydonk.

Where I differ is in the blue sky assessment.

This is indeed a crossroads where the whole ball of wax is at stake, where triumph is in the balance, but I think there is real daylight out of the mess because of emerging work on several fronts and evolving perspectives that will rest on a much more solid foundation going forward. Not easy by any means, and a challenging road to hoe, but realistically possible. Where it not for the aforementioned emerging work and evolving perspective, the prognosis would be as dire as you expressed.

So, in the end, I do believe that what Mark Twain said after hearing that his obituary had been published in the New York Journal, will be said of WZ, in the foreseeable future:
The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated.....
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Emdek » 11 Jan 2013, 16:22

Rman Virgil, suggestions to have both versions in parallel are even older than few weeks. ;-)
Anyway, maybe it would be better to wait how converting campaign will turn out?
Before it won't be done it is not known how big differences will be. It may turn out more similar to original than current state is. :-P
After it is done then there could be made decisions what would be the best approach to satisfy as many users as possible (since it might be impossible to satisfy all of them).
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 11 Jan 2013, 19:25

All this arguing about whether the campaign should be improved or preserved seems close to a flame war to me.

Personally, while I believe that the campaign may receive some changes here or there, I TRUST that the campaign experience from 3.2 and onwards would remain largely intact, with the new scripting even making it a bit more enjoyable than before (especially if it means that certain bugs and issues get fixed, such as if the Collective Commander from Beta Mission 4 would no longer get stuck behind a building, and actually proceed to leave the map through the south-west corner (based on my past experiences with the old PlayStation version), or if the final Gamma mission would actually end when NEXUS's main base gets destroyed).

In any case, what has personally kept me around here for the past several months (almost a year now) has been the moddability of the game, and NOT the campaign. I'm personally interested in seeing a new expansion-styled campaign being developed in the future, not unlike the Mental Omega mod for Command & Conquer: Red Alert 2, or The Forgotten mod for Command & Conquer 3?
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Emdek » 11 Jan 2013, 19:31

Shadow Wolf TJC, that issue with final mission happens only if you save and reload after some unknown event (I've tried to figure it out one year ago but didn't succeed), but it will surely successfully finish if you will play it in one pass.

There is one more option, bigger changes could be introduced leveraging hard mode, like few additional challenges. Like additional enemy attacks that would happen only when playing on hard mode etc., keeping normal mode as closest as possible to original state (not current, with bugs, maybe even reverting some changes done to campaign).
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


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Rman Virgil
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Rman Virgil » 11 Jan 2013, 20:27

Emdek wrote:Rman Virgil, suggestions to have both versions in parallel are even older than few weeks. ;-)
Anyway, maybe it would be better to wait how converting campaign will turn out?
Before it won't be done it is not known how big differences will be. It may turn out more similar to original than current state is. :-P
After it is done then there could be made decisions what would be the best approach to satisfy as many users as possible (since it might be impossible to satisfy all of them).
That makes sense. Just expressing strongly a point without the slightest animus, or ill will, towards anyone. :)

I think the debate has been overwhelmingly civil, cogent, on point, insightful and informing. Don't see a flame war arising which I understand as:
A flame war is a heated argument between two individuals, that results in those involved posting personal attacks on each other during, or instead of, debating the topic at hand.

Most forums have rules that forbid flaming. This is because the quality of conversation can be seriously degraded by a flame war. Topics can be "hijacked" by two people who would rather flame each other than discuss the subject of the thread.

(Source: Urban Dictionary)
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Delphinio » 12 Jan 2013, 02:23

bendib wrote:
Rman Virgil wrote: Yes. Been a prob for awhile. But it is recognized and, if i'm understanding what i'm reading correctly the last couple days, long-term solutions going forward are being seriously explored. :hmm:
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There is a rather large difference between exploring ways to fix these mods and actually fixing them, and this mod has been unavailable for what? A year? Is that what should happen to the standard campaign? Or worse? Port to JS, Make it a mod!
NTW mod and Original Balance are not unavailable.

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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Rman Virgil » 12 Jan 2013, 05:25

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I meant solutions to rampant mod breakage over the years which eventually discourages modders because of the continuous, endless, cycle of fixing breakage which takes away from the energy and inspiration to improve their work artistically.
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by bendib » 12 Jan 2013, 08:58

Not many arguments can be made against that quote up there.
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Lord Apocalypse » 14 Jan 2013, 04:48

Rman Virgil wrote:
BTW, those are very ambitious CAM goals LA. :) You gonna eventually make a dedicated thread to discuss details ? :3

Regards, Rman.

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Yeah, though time has not permitted me to do very much lately.

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