Should campaign be improved?

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bendib
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Should campaign be improved?

Post by bendib » 10 Jan 2013, 06:25

Am I correct in assuming this is the first time in history that the campaign has been altered noticeably?
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Goth Zagog-Thou
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Re: Improving the campaign - Alpha 1

Post by Goth Zagog-Thou » 10 Jan 2013, 07:58

Yep, aside from some minor (unnoticeable) fixes early on in Warzone's life, IIRC.

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Re: Improving the campaign - Alpha 1

Post by bendib » 10 Jan 2013, 09:22

Then allow me to say my opinion on the matter: I don't care if it's a little harder. I implore you devs to undo ANY changes to the campaign! This is a direct blow to the game's history, in what seems to be a series of unnecessary changes in the game raining like howitzer shells! Take a step back and think about what your users want. Please. Multiplayer has changed much over the years, but the campaign has always been the same. Keep it this way? Keep the campaign solid? Just convert it?
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Re: Improving the campaign - Alpha 1

Post by Emdek » 10 Jan 2013, 10:27

bendib, this was discussed already at least once, and the only way that makes sense is to improve campaign but keep unchanged version (only converted to current architecture) as addon to download or shipped with game (since it will be only few KB of scripts and in more "extreme" case few changed maps) and labeled as "Classic", whatever.
Also as exclusive campaign player I'm for improving it since it is not real challenge except few missions (but this doesn't mean that all missions should be harder, we need more variety)...
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Re: Improving the campaign - Alpha 1

Post by zydonk » 10 Jan 2013, 12:53

Given the kind of "improvements" that have already been inflicted on the original WZ, can you not this time accept the principle that changes to the game - in this case the campaign - be offered as mods? The problem with changing the game itself - as we have seen in ample detail - is trying to get peeps to change back when they get it wrong. A lot of ego involved then...

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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Per » 10 Jan 2013, 13:49

I split this out to avoid derailing the other thread.

I want to keep campaign unchanged in spirit and story, but it has some weaknesses that deserve to be fixed so that new generations of players can enjoy it to the fullest extent that we can offer it, and I think this is more important than preserving the original campaign exactly as it were.

History is preserved since 1.10 exists and is freely available. I am also sure that other Warzone projects that have different aims will seek to preserve the campaign in a more literal manner, and I wish them the best of luck with those efforts.

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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by bendib » 10 Jan 2013, 23:01

Sorry, but 1.10 is a fossilized and nearly unplayable (for most) relic. When you say for a new generation to enjoy the game to it's fullest extent, you mean your modification of the game. Your altered version. This is a slippery slope. Once you justify one modification or two to the campaign, it just goes downhill. Seen it before. I personally hate the balance in the campaign, but it's NOT MY RIGHT to alter history! You don't see me rescripting the campaign in Legacy do you? Of course not! That's a crime against all of Warzone. Legacy got it's name because it's attempting to PRESERVE, not to CHANGE. Legacy wouldn't even exist if you people hadn't dropped the ball, and frankly, I really hate splitting the Warzone 2100 brand, but the more changes you do like this, the more I feel Legacy is needed. Beta 11 wasn't a "horrible" release, despite some balance changes that really pissed me off (fixed in Legacy), and I felt you guys had gone back on the right track, then RC3 came out, and as I read your git commits, it pushes me further and further from this project.

I don't like it.

Until you guys wash off the peanut butter you coated yourselves in and take off the hats made of ricecakes,
I'm afraid I will have to turn a sad, blind eye to this project's misdeeds.

I really don't like blasting you guys like this, but you are driving me nuts. As for the users who want this, I understand your desire for a better game, but MAKE IT A MOD. A mod. Keep the core game intact, at least the campaign!

-Subsentient
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by aubergine » 10 Jan 2013, 23:21

I'm not sure it's a crime against all of WZ. After all, one of the big goals of Pumpkin Studios was to make the game moddable so that things could be changed and fresh new features added.

There's bugs in the campaign, they need fixing. And currently the scripting is a dire mess - the mere way it works leads to stuff breaking and being nightmarishly difficult to fix. The fact that wscript is a somewhat obscure format doesn't help either.

With the new scripting system that's being implemented, and the new stats format, it will be easier than ever for people to release campaign mods. So if someone wants the exact replica of the old campaign, with it's old balance, it can be done as a mod.

With the old system, you basically have to mod the game, like Cam4 does. There's no way to add new campaigns, and customising existing campaigns is a decidedly non-trivial task (which it's taken 13 years for the first custom campaign to appear).

For me the main thing about the campaign the first time you play it is a) creeping round the map trying to defeat an enemy with superior tech and b) the story line. Both of those things will remain, on the same maps, with pretty much everything working as it used to. There might be tweaks here and there, but essentially it's the same campaign.

And with a moddable campaign infrastructure, anyone who wants to undo those tweaks can easily do so without enduring a world of pain.
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Lord Apocalypse » 11 Jan 2013, 00:13

I for one think the modifications to the main campaign don't go far enough. For Redemption the campaigns are going to expand a bit, first with 2 new campaigns set before and after the original 3.

As an alternate idea a campaign switch based off of someones (Rman I think) story that splits the NP into a second nexus free faction fighting against itself. Now that I think of it though I'm not so sure it was Rman who wrote it...

Anyway, Bendib.. keeps the campaign as cannon in legacy, this project can make its minor modifications while I just turn the players expectations of the cams upside down and knock em sideways.

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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by bendib » 11 Jan 2013, 00:55

I feel that the campaign COULD be ported from wzscript to JS, no harm there. What I find harm in is the *canonical* Warzone 2100, under the brand of it's ancestors, modifying the canonical campaign! Redemption is free to do as they wish, as is Legacy, though our goals and directives prohibit this. Again, I not only tolerate, but endorse modding. I do NOT endorse changing the DEFAULT campaign. I have no issues with porting to JS, I have issues with altering the gameplay in the process.

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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Rman Virgil » 11 Jan 2013, 01:01

Lord Apocalypse wrote:I for one think the modifications to the main campaign don't go far enough. For Redemption the campaigns are going to expand a bit, first with 2 new campaigns set before and after the original 3.

As an alternate idea a campaign switch based off of someones (Rman I think) story that splits the NP into a second nexus free faction fighting against itself. Now that I think of it though I'm not so sure it was Rman who wrote it...

Anyway, Bendib.. keeps the campaign as cannon in legacy, this project can make its minor modifications while I just turn the players expectations of the cams upside down and knock em sideways.
I did something like that for the defunct WZ 2200 campaign and posted some of it here in various threads. However, there are 2 other central writers of expansively detailed alternate WZ stories from years past that could have explored similar plots, but I can't recall. Those would be Stratadrake and Imminent Storm.

BTW, those are very ambitious CAM goals LA. :) You gonna eventually make a dedicated thread to discuss details ? :3

Regards, Rman.

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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Rman Virgil » 11 Jan 2013, 01:17

bendib wrote:I feel that the campaign COULD be ported from wzscript to JS, no harm there. What I find harm in is the *canonical* Warzone 2100, under the brand of it's ancestors, modifying the canonical campaign! Redemption is free to do as they wish, as is Legacy, though our goals and directives prohibit this. Again, I not only tolerate, but endorse modding. I do NOT endorse changing the DEFAULT campaign. I have no issues with porting to JS, I have issues with altering the gameplay in the process.

-Subsentient
I agree. Should be available at least, as I suggested earlier, as a CAM Mode perhaps called "Pumpkin Classic". I think of the canonical campaign as Pumpkin Studio's "War and Peace". While many have been directly inspired by Tolstoy's work in creating their own works who would dare rewrite Tolstoy to "correct and improve" his work and frack his original ? Making the original campaign readily available, intact, is one central way to honor WZ Creators, IMO.

Regards, Rman.

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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by bendib » 11 Jan 2013, 01:26

I appreciate the sentiment, but how long will the campaign last before it's broken in another version? We saw what happened to the 1.10 balance mod and NTW mods.

Think about this!
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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by Per » 11 Jan 2013, 01:28

bendib wrote:Redemption is free to do as they wish, as is Legacy
But we are not? O_o

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Re: Should campaign be improved?

Post by bendib » 11 Jan 2013, 01:33

Redemption and Legacy do not carry the canonical warzone brand, so they are free to do as they wish. You have a responsibility to the heritage of this game. I do, however, go by the idea that "All Legacy is Warzone 2100, but not all Warzone 2100 is Legacy.", meaning that it's canonical Warzone with a diff logo and maintainers. Multiplayer balance changes, UI changes, engine changes, etc have all occurred, and those, while some questionable, never really affected the playing of the campaign, the heart of Warzone.
It doesn't need a transplant or a bypass or any modification at all. Just port it to JS, PLEASE! Have all the fun you want making the new, altered campaign a mod, I just want the standard campaign to be pristine.
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