Why was rank removed? Many problems!

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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby montetank » 18 Feb 2016, 20:59

KillerChinchilla69 wrote:
vexed wrote:Thanks, at least some people understand the issues involved here...

stiv wrote:I find the argument that "yes, the data is bad, but we can still use it to make decisions" to be simply hilarious.


Gentlemen, there is no need for passive aggressive or disrespectful comments.
O_o DISRESPECTFULL?? One of the reasons i am staying here in the forum is, that i never have the feeling, the admins write disrespectfull comments. Aggressiveness can be conjured up, and it can be made. :annoyed:
In case the WZ-game ends in a draw , the game winner will be determined by penalty shoot-out.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby KillerChinchilla69 » 18 Feb 2016, 21:59

Reread what they wrote.

Vexed implying that I don't understand something is a passive aggressive way of saying I don't know what I am talking about.
Stiv finding my argument to be hilarious is disrespectful.

Anyone would feel as I do if they were treated that way.

Montetank, you seem to agree with their opinions on rank removal. I would guess that you also do not seek rational or accountability for rank removal. They have no reason to belittle your opinion or intelligence since you share their views.

montetank wrote: Aggressiveness can be conjured up, and it can be made. :annoyed:

What exactly do you mean by this?
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby NoQ » 18 Feb 2016, 22:44

making a concerted effort to change the community's behavior

Are you ready to provide even a rough estimate for the amount of effort? Is it something that can be achieved, say, by writing a forum post? An advertisement on the official website? A post in any social network group? A video on youtube? How much effort would such propaganda campaign take in order to reach its target audience? Does any of the places mentioned above actually contain a significant percentage of the target audience? Does a large part of the target audience speak English?

There's a lot of propaganda i ever wanted to make: stop kicking noobs, stop faking ranks, stop cheating, play classic-style maps, arrange games in the chat. I've put quite a bit of effort into some of those, and succeeded in none. I'd have had a look at success stories for similar situations.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby KillerChinchilla69 » 19 Feb 2016, 00:27

NoQ wrote:
making a concerted effort to change the community's behavior

Are you ready to provide even a rough estimate for the amount of effort? Is it something that can be achieved, say, by writing a forum post? An advertisement on the official website? A post in any social network group? A video on youtube? How much effort would such propaganda campaign take in order to reach its target audience? Does any of the places mentioned above actually contain a significant percentage of the target audience? Does a large part of the target audience speak English?

There's a lot of propaganda i ever wanted to make: stop kicking noobs, stop faking ranks, stop cheating, play classic-style maps, arrange games in the chat. I've put quite a bit of effort into some of those, and succeeded in none. I'd have had a look at success stories for similar situations.


I agree, its not easy. It might be good to start a separate thread about this... The main goal is to grow the community, things like not kicking new players are a vital piece of that larger goal. A lot of existing players use the forums and IRC, so as far as trying to herd the proverbial herd of cats, those are logical places to start. But how do we reach more people to swell the ranks?

I am glad you mentioned social media. If we want to reach the most people possible, which we obviously do, I think it would be smart to make better usage of social media. Social media is a great tool to expose people to the game. I looked up Warzone 2100 on facebook and found the Warzone 2100 Facebook page. Lets do a back-of-the-envelope calculation, just to get a very rough idea of how many people we could reach.

The Warzone FB page has 2147 people liking it. This means that every time it sends out a message, some amount of those people will see that message, lets say a conservative number of 1500 of the 2147 people see that message. If we can get even a small percentage of those people to like/comment it will expose lots of their friends to the game, lets say 5% of the 1500, and assume each of those people has 200 friends. Lets also assume that based on the FB algorithms for what to display on news feeds only 25% of those friends see their friend liking/commenting on the WZ2100 message. 1500 people in group * .05 like/comment rate= 75 people like/commenting -> 75 people like/commenting * 200 friends per person =15000 friends -> 15000 *.25 Facebook news feed share rate=3750 people. Even if this calculation is off by an order of magnitude its still a large amount of people. Looking at the 8 posts since 2013, they all have at least 50 likes, some more then 100, and people commenting on them.

My point is that the Facebook page is key to attracting new players, even just a monthly message about anything really will help. The page has not sent out a message since June 25 2014! :(

There is another Facebook thing, not really sure what it would be considered, but it has 3371 people liking it. Here I think it displays when people share things related to Warzone on Facebook.
There is a public group that has 334 people Here.
There is a very active Russian community on vk, it would be good to include them as well.

If we were to have large groups of new players flooding game lobbies it would cause some changes. "Pro' players maybe more likely to arrange games in IRC, and/or use a common PW among experienced players. Right now there are only a few new players here and there, so you can open a lobby and only the regulars and a few noobs will typically join. Its just easier to kick out the few noobs then to use a PW.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby Rommel » 19 Feb 2016, 03:19

NoQ wrote:play classic-style maps


Why is this so important? I would suggest that it doesn't matter what style of map people play as long as they are playing WZ...
Moving back instead of forward
Seems to me absurd
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby montetank » 19 Feb 2016, 03:43

Rommel wrote:
NoQ wrote:play classic-style maps


Why is this so important? I would suggest that it doesn't matter what style of map people play as long as they are playing WZ...
As long as they play NTW-maps with 40oils/player and sometimes 8 trucks at the start, they don`t play WZ 2100. They play a game called "Call of Research-the never ending power edition" or something like that IMO :wink: Thats our old discussion and is off topic. You are one of the rare exceptions, who solved the campaign-i remember your cyborg-idea in the mission,with the transporter. That was something i would call strategy-nice idea.
But i could bet, that 90% of the NTW-players never tried to play the campaign or a difficult large low oil map. Warzone 2100......Strategy by Design!
In case the WZ-game ends in a draw , the game winner will be determined by penalty shoot-out.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby KillerChinchilla69 » 19 Feb 2016, 04:00

If a registry system were put in place that allowed people to have profiles, we could also have challenges that give medals or something for the profile. Some of these can be based on doing things on low oil maps, completing the campaign, 1000 kills with a particular weapon, etc.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby vexed » 19 Feb 2016, 05:33

KillerChinchilla69 wrote:
vexed wrote:Thanks, at least some people understand the issues involved here...

stiv wrote:I find the argument that "yes, the data is bad, but we can still use it to make decisions" to be simply hilarious.


Gentlemen, there is no need for passive aggressive or disrespectful comments. Please treat me and my opinion with the same respect I give you and yours. If you disagree, surely the reason for disagreement is sufficient.


You are blowing this way out of proportion, and reading way too much into what I said. :stressed:
I already stated the reasons, and we tried everything we could think of to get people to try the pre 3.1.3 builds the best we could, via this forum, our IRC channel, the lobby server, you name it we did it.
I also stated the details will follow, so asking over and over again is of no help at all, and doesn't serve any purpose whatsoever.
So, what is done is done, move forward, not backwards.

I realize you are new here, just be patient, nobody here is working on WZ full time, nobody is getting paid, we have barely 1-3 (usually 1) people working on things on their off hours (We all have real jobs that get in the way of how much time we can allocate to WZ).

And as I mentioned before, the VAST majority of the Warzone 2100 user base is campaign & skirmish games. Look at the stats of downloads, then look how many play online?
When they do try online, they were met with rude behavior (usually kicks on sight) as outlined in other posts & e-mails.
That is KILLING the MP user base.
The rest is just smoke & mirrors. That is the real problem here.

P.S, no, I have no idea who controls the FB (or anything outside of this sites) pages, and I don't really wish to join FB or anything else, I leave that up to the community.
/facepalm ...Grinch stole Warzone🙈🙉🙊 contra principia negantem non est disputandum
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby Tzeentch » 19 Feb 2016, 11:46

PS. O_o Maybe i missunderstood "Kill-ratio" Do you mean: units built/own units killed ?? Can`t work. Example: Before i destroy the last enemy truck i would built as much units as possible. The whole system should forget the "units killed" problem.
I mean, for every unit of your which is killed by enemy, you have killed over 3. so you kill 9 of his tanks, he only kills 3 or less of yours. Buildings and cyborgs would also count as if you are effective then should be able to have them survive and outclass your opponent. so it by this is like using 1 knight to capture 2 prawns, bishop and a rook. It is only counting on units which have been killed, not made.

Another issue is players cheating the system. CSGO is not a free game, and yet lots of people cheat and risk getting their accounts banned. Warzone is a free game, players don't have to invest to play the game. What measures could we have to prevent cheating? What is stopping a player from having two computers and boosting his one accout by repeatedly beating the other account?
- someone who does that is a massive loser lol but not alot could stop that. It is like security you cannot be completely unbreakable, you are only trying to be harder to break.

I've read through these posts and alot of things get talked about without that much happening by comparison. I have to side with Chinchilla on this one more so and he is asking questions only for one of the admins to laugh in his face then answer none of his questions which is simply unfair. Then he is told he doesn't understand, well given he is new how could he be expected to understand? When the info seems to be withheld from him. "I don't think the data is as bad as you guys make it out to be. I rarely see bad players with pink medals, what I would guess is what you guys call a rank faker.
" - me neither. To be fair he has come up with some suggestions on how to go about ranks as per - viewtopic.php?f=43&t=12379#p133705

Seems to me like people on both sides of the coin are frustrated from their viewpoints, for Chin with high rank it has suddenly been taken away after earning it rightfully and Admins side it is well we are doing all the work we are able to make wz better yet someone is mad at us while we do this without expecting any money for others to enjoy using our limited free time.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby montetank » 19 Feb 2016, 15:17

The intend of this map is, to loosen up and to support the discussion. Did someone thought about a draw in Warzone? How should a draw be handled? The following is a possible scenario: My last two tanks destroyed the last enemy factory, but the enemy flamers destroyed my tanks. My opponent has now about 40 cyborg flamers and not one unit to built a new factory.
My last truck was very smart and had the idea to built defense structures. And what now? Penalty shootout? Thats a draw. Try it out-you cant win in this map. Advanced bases.
There are many possible ways for a draw in Warzone games. Where is the "I/we offer a draw-button? XD

PS. Instead of a machinegun hardpoint i placed some boulders to give you a chance.... :wink:
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In case the WZ-game ends in a draw , the game winner will be determined by penalty shoot-out.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby KillerChinchilla69 » 19 Feb 2016, 21:22

I had not realized there are so few people working on things. Thanks for the insight Vexed. Lets move the discussion forward.

For the rank design discussion it would be good to know what kind of capabilities WZ has:
for reporting game information to a server
for allowing players to offer a concession, draw, offer match to not count etc.
for players to reconnect if they drop connection.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby montetank » 19 Feb 2016, 22:38

KillerChinchilla69 wrote:for allowing players to offer a concession, draw, offer match to not count etc.
:3 Sounds good. The question is-is it technically possible?
In case the WZ-game ends in a draw , the game winner will be determined by penalty shoot-out.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby The Overlord » 20 Feb 2016, 01:24

The units killed : units lost ratio is really cool. I would hope it won't be like the old system and be comparable to the old gold medal that was a 8:1 win:loss. For example 5 units killed:1 lost is like killing 5 people at once with the same resources which is rather impossible with even teams.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby montetank » 20 Feb 2016, 06:06

I am to stupid to understand this killed/lost ratio.
Example: I lost only 1 Dragon Plasma/Gauss but my opponent lost 8 viper/wheels mg. Fantastic-i am a good player. The killed/lost ratio should be calculated on their costs + research costs aso. Not only the number of units.

Correction: No killed/lost ratio. I will explain tomorrow why not. Its not logical. :idea:
In case the WZ-game ends in a draw , the game winner will be determined by penalty shoot-out.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby cybersphinx » 20 Feb 2016, 06:45

Just a short remark: If you give players any objective besides winning, they will try to game the system for best results and thus play differently than otherwise.
We want information... information... information.
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