Why was rank removed? Many problems!

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Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby KillerChinchilla69 » 12 Feb 2016, 06:21

stiv wrote:
FWIW, I think removing rank to fix the kick problem is a terrible idea

You misunderstand the intent. As currently implemented, it is unreliable data. Given that the rank info is stored in a local file on the player's machine, it is possible to edit the file and be any rank you want.


I respectively disagree, it just does not make sense. Is what your suggesting the real reason that rank was removed? Because if so, it is not justified.

The rank system has been this way for the entire history of WZ. You are saying that the only reason that rank was removed was because it was reliable? What has changed after 17 years that NOW rank should be removed?

Oh, and the alternative of having no rank is even better? Of course a reliable rank system would be best, but this is what the game currently has. If we had a new rank system to take over, then sure switch to the new one, but as far as I know, there is not a new rank system to switch to. How far out is the new one?

People creating a fake rank is not even a real issue, who is it hurting? If anything, it lets new players look more experienced and avoid being kicked! Removing it solves no problems, it only causes even more!

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but my understanding is that rank was removed so people could not identify new players as easily. This unsound logic was thought up so people would kick noobs less because they couldn't tell that they were new. This really blows my mind.

So now here are the repercussions of ripping rank out for no good reason:

Players no longer have rank-everyone gets punished!

We cant tell who is new. More people get kicked then before because the host does not know who they are. Before you could at least have a medal to prove you were decent if the host didn't recognize your name.

More games are unbalanced, thus hurting the community and making people play less. Data that may be inaccurate at times is better then no data at all!!!

Who decided rank removal was a good idea. Who did it and why? How many people thought this through?
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby Rommel » 12 Feb 2016, 07:27

I kind of agree with you. If a player has the ability to edit that rank file they are probably not a noob...

It might be a good time to put some resources into the Multiplayer Server and host rank. Couldn't it just start of as a simple affair - registration / login and rank. Could be just a matter of hosting the data that is already used with rank - basically username/password and three rank fields (i think).

When you access multiplayer there would be a login / register screen and then you could get your hosted rank.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby _Majo_ » 12 Feb 2016, 18:58

And what about keeping the current rank system and only add a checksum or md5 hash at the end of the stats file.Then check if the hash matches the data presented in the file. If yes then show the rank, if not show (you will play with no rank). Or if you are very paranoiac then you can even encrypt the file. I think that this would be much easier to implement and user friendly then email and password based registration.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby trevormanaze » 15 Feb 2016, 21:58

Somebody online in a wz game was saying they switched it to a global ranking structor. I didn't find out any further information
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby KillerChinchilla69 » 15 Feb 2016, 23:52

_Majo_ wrote:And what about keeping the current rank system and only add a checksum or md5 hash at the end of the stats file.Then check if the hash matches the data presented in the file. If yes then show the rank, if not show (you will play with no rank). Or if you are very paranoiac then you can even encrypt the file. I think that this would be much easier to implement and user friendly then email and password based registration.


This is a cool idea, but I don't know how easy this would be to implement. Which leads into the other reply:

trevormanaze wrote:Somebody online in a wz game was saying they switched it to a global ranking structor. I didn't find out any further information


Yes I have heard this too. Can someone more involved in the new system spread some knowledge about what lies ahead?
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby vexed » 17 Feb 2016, 05:39

KillerChinchilla69 wrote:People creating a fake rank is not even a real issue, who is it hurting? If anything, it lets new players look more experienced and avoid being kicked! Removing it solves no problems, it only causes even more!

So, new players that take the time to edit a file are better players than those that don't? :roll:
Players no longer have rank-everyone gets punished!

How is everyone punished? You are still KillerChinchilla69 are you not? You still have the same skill level as before, and people who have played against you also know your skill level.
We cant tell who is new. More people get kicked then before because the host does not know who they are. Before you could at least have a medal to prove you were decent if the host didn't recognize your name.

And you couldn't tell who was new before either since people could edit that, so how does that prove anything but you know how to edit a text file?
More games are unbalanced, thus hurting the community and making people play less. Data that may be inaccurate at times is better then no data at all!!!

Most players still use their nicks they always use, and it is easy enough to verify players via a variety of ways.
Is there something wrong with asking a person how good of a player they are?
What, they can lie? Well, no kidding, and they can also fake their rank, game is just as unbalanced as before is it not?

_Majo_ wrote:And what about keeping the current rank system and only add a checksum or md5 hash at the end of the stats file.Then check if the hash matches the data presented in the file. If yes then show the rank, if not show (you will play with no rank). Or if you are very paranoiac then you can even encrypt the file. I think that this would be much easier to implement and user friendly then email and password based registration.

This type of thing is already done in master builds...

montetank wrote:I don`t know, how the system looks like, because i don`t play online (long time ago, i did). But i wonder why the ELO-system isn`t in use. Like in Chess. For example Rank=title in chess. And as added information the ELO-number. It is so easy. Every newb starts with ELO 1600. If the newb plays against a player with ELO 2000 for example and wins, then his new ELO is ((3x his old ELO + (ELO of opponent +400)) divided by 4 = 1800. The player with 2000 has a new ELO of (3x2000 + 1600-400)/4 = 1800. The system with stars and medals is total nonsense and is no information about the real play strength. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elo_rating_system

I know, what you want to ask-how does it works in 2 vs 2 games?
Simple: If winning : (2x3xold number + average of opponents+400) / 7
Its a simple algorithm.


Thanks, at least some people understand the issues involved here...
While ELO is one way, we are going to use another one. More details will come later, but, the code for this is already done, we just basically need to fix the WZ side of things, and it is a simple plug & play system server side.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby Rommel » 18 Feb 2016, 03:01

Thanks, at least some people understand the issues involved here...
While ELO is one way, we are going to use another one. More details will come later, but, the code for this is already done, we just basically need to fix the WZ side of things, and it is a simple plug & play system server side.


That's really great to hear. Thanks a lot for the work you guys do on this great game, it is a great service to many people and I, for one, appreciate it greatly :)
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby stiv » 18 Feb 2016, 05:21

I find the argument that "yes, the data is bad, but we can still use it to make decisions" to be simply hilarious. Not only is WZ rank easily modified, but it is also transient. Hard drive crash? New computer? If you just installed Warzone, you are suddenly a noob no matter what your experience.

The players you know, you know by name. Let's focus on making player name a persistent feature rather than getting all excited over a config file.

People getting kicked for noobishness is a social problem, not a technical one.

If you want to have an argument, do it over how exactly to calculate rank. For extra credit, you can use game statistics like units killed or units built.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby Tzeentch » 18 Feb 2016, 10:01

in other games you had an info button that would also display how many games they have played, won out of those and average game times with win/loss ratio in %. Also having some medals in place would be good as a showcase for the person. That'd be a later add on feature.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby montetank » 18 Feb 2016, 15:08

stiv wrote: For extra credit, you can use game statistics like units killed or units built.
:hmm: The problem with "units killed": This will force the players to play only this 200² oil-derrick NTW maps. They will build and build units and destroy about 2000 units, until one side will win.
You need about 30 Low-oil games to have the same number of killed units.

And don`t forget-it is possible to win a game with more units lost as the opponent. Warzone isn`t soccer. The only thing that counts is win/loose. Nothing else.
In case the WZ-game ends in a draw , the game winner will be determined by penalty shoot-out.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby Tzeentch » 18 Feb 2016, 16:16

this is part why things like a 3-1 kill ratio as a medal would be good, or 5 -1. it is harder to win with such a difference. This way you can forget about winning a medal for 3,000 kills in you game career etc. Other medals like research all the tech in one path for example.

All good being said but depends on what people are actually willing to do and make happen for what 3.1.4 release?
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby montetank » 18 Feb 2016, 16:50

Tzeentch wrote:this is part why things like a 3-1 kill ratio as a medal would be good, or 5 -1.
True art is to win with a 1-3 kill ratio. :ninja: It is too early to predict when a system will be established and what it will look like. Its not easy for a game like warzone. Low/mid/high oil games have to be handled separately, IMO.

PS. O_o Maybe i missunderstood "Kill-ratio" Do you mean: units built/own units killed ?? Can`t work. Example: Before i destroy the last enemy truck i would built as much units as possible. The whole system should forget the "units killed" problem.
What is better in chess, for example? To win with 9 Queens against a lonely King or to win with only a pawn against the whole enemy army?
In case the WZ-game ends in a draw , the game winner will be determined by penalty shoot-out.
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby KillerChinchilla69 » 18 Feb 2016, 18:36

vexed wrote:Thanks, at least some people understand the issues involved here...

stiv wrote:I find the argument that "yes, the data is bad, but we can still use it to make decisions" to be simply hilarious.


Gentlemen, there is no need for passive aggressive or disrespectful comments. Please treat me and my opinion with the same respect I give you and yours. If you disagree, surely the reason for disagreement is sufficient.

I have listed several questions that have remained unanswered:

KillerChinchilla69 wrote:
stiv wrote:
FWIW, I think removing rank to fix the kick problem is a terrible idea

You misunderstand the intent. As currently implemented, it is unreliable data. Given that the rank info is stored in a local file on the player's machine, it is possible to edit the file and be any rank you want.


I respectively disagree, it just does not make sense. Is what your suggesting the real reason that rank was removed? Because if so, it is not justified.

The rank system has been this way for the entire history of WZ. You are saying that the only reason that rank was removed was because it was reliable? What has changed after 17 years that NOW rank should be removed?

Oh, and the alternative of having no rank is even better? Of course a reliable rank system would be best, but this is what the game currently has. If we had a new rank system to take over, then sure switch to the new one, but as far as I know, there is not a new rank system to switch to. How far out is the new one?

Who decided rank removal was a good idea. Who did it and why? How many people thought this through?


So basically:

Who decided to remove rank?
What was their rational?
Why not just wait for the new rank system?
How long until new rank system?
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby KillerChinchilla69 » 18 Feb 2016, 19:22

I have played several games(COD, CSGO, Magic) that have different ranking systems and I think we should look to them for guidance. The most robust rank system I have knowledge of is CSGO, and I think it has a few good points we should discuss. Its important to understand no matter how you implement a rank system it will be imperfect, the job at hand is to try to make the best one for WZ.

Counter-strike Global Offensive(CSGO) has two separate rank systems and two separate game types. Games are either competitive and count towards your competitive rank, or are casual and do not count towards your competitive rank. All games, both competitive and casual, give you experience points(XP) and contribute towards another rank system(lets call it casual rank). As you gain XP from all games and completing challenges, causing your casual rank to increase. This rank never decreases based on poor performance, it only increases and can be used as a measure of how much a player has played the game.

Competitive games counts towards competitive rank, casual obviously does not. If WZ were to implement a strict ranking system where all games counted towards one type of rank, players may be hesitant to play. Personally, I don't want to lose my competitive rank and therefore would not want to play competitive games with new players, unbalanced teams etc. As the rank system stands right now, there is no rank, so I will play just about any game haha. Having the option for casual game that do not count towards competitive rank, but do count towards a casual rank, would probably be a good idea!

Another issue is how often people drop out of games, thus causing their team to lose. This is a major issue that other games have solved. In CSGO, for example, players have the ability to reconnect if they are disconnected. If they do not reconnect, their team gets a bot that the other players can control, this helps their team deal with being down a player. Is there a way that we can do something similar in WZ? It would not be fair for a player to drop connection and all the other team mates lose the game and rank points.

Another issue is players cheating the system. CSGO is not a free game, and yet lots of people cheat and risk getting their accounts banned. Warzone is a free game, players don't have to invest to play the game. What measures could we have to prevent cheating? What is stopping a player from having two computers and boosting his one accout by repeatedly beating the other account?


TLDR: CSGO has competitive and causal game types, all give experience points that contribute to casual rank, only competitive games count towards competitive rank. We may want to consider something similar. Warzone games often drop players, unbalancing teams and ruining the game, how do we account for this in competitive games? Players are always going to try to exploit a system, how do we prevent cheating/account boosting?
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Re: Why was rank removed? Many problems!

Postby KillerChinchilla69 » 18 Feb 2016, 19:35

stiv wrote:I find the argument that "yes, the data is bad, but we can still use it to make decisions" to be simply hilarious. Not only is WZ rank easily modified, but it is also transient. Hard drive crash? New computer? If you just installed Warzone, you are suddenly a noob no matter what your experience.

The players you know, you know by name. Let's focus on making player name a persistent feature rather than getting all excited over a config file.

People getting kicked for noobishness is a social problem, not a technical one.

If you want to have an argument, do it over how exactly to calculate rank. For extra credit, you can use game statistics like units killed or units built.


I just read this comment fully, wow. Dismissive. I am asking for accountability and rational. For the record, I can and will have an argument about anything I please if I think it is warranted and in the best interest of the community.

I don't think the data is as bad as you guys make it out to be. I rarely see bad players with pink medals, what I would guess is what you guys call a rank faker.

Yes, players getting kicked for noobishness is a social problem, not a technical problem. So why remove rank instead of making a concerted effort to change the community's behavior?
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