Yet another balance proposal.

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Reg312
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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by Reg312 » 15 May 2012, 21:05

NoQ: you changed price of cannon fortress incorrect in weapons.txt
it should be changed in structures.txt

same for incendiary mortar, it rarely used as weapon
and incendiary mortar as turret on tanks is not OP design
i think you meant change price of building "incendiary mortar" in structures.txt

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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by NoQ » 16 May 2012, 06:39

In fact, decreasing the incendiary damage is the closest thing we can do to make them weak against AA on walls.
Last edited by NoQ on 16 May 2012, 07:22, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by Reg312 » 16 May 2012, 07:20

NoQ wrote:In fact, decreasing the incendiary damage is the closest thing we can do to make them weak against AA on walls.
for incendiary damage no matter is AA on walls or on ground
but you can set incendiary damage lesser than HP of whirlwind hardpoint
to prevent whirlwind hardpoint to be destroyed from 1 bomb
(seems whirlwind hardpoint have x2 HP that whirlwind site)
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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by NoQ » 16 May 2012, 07:22

and incendiary mortar as turret on tanks is not OP design
That is certainly not true. The main problem is, in fact, an incendiary mortar cobra hover (deadly damage, insane range, fast speed ... a single unit can win the game).
_______________________
it should be changed in structures.txt
Ooops fixed :oops:
Inferno price 80->110 incend.radius 64->48 incend.damage 40->32
Thermite Cyborg incend.damage 38->32
Plasmite price 80->130 incend.radius 96->60 incend.damage 63->50
Incendiary Mortar price 150->200 pit price 135->170 incend.damage 30->22
Incendiary Howitzer price 250->300 emplacement price 325->400 incend.damage 60->32
Minipod range 1152->1088
MRA damage 34->28 reload time 145->165
HMG damage 18->17
AG fire pause 3->4 damage 20->19
TAG price 100->120 fire pause 3->4 damage 30->28
AG Cyborg fire pause 4->5 damage 20->18
MG ROF upgrades 15%/30%/45% -> 17%/34%/50%.
MC research points 4800->3600
HPV research points 7200->4800
Gates price 25->75
Whirlwind fire pause 3->4
Thermite Bombs incend.damage 200->150
Plasmite Bombs incend.damage 200->175
Cannon Fortress price 1000->800 range 1792->1280

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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by Reg312 » 16 May 2012, 07:36

NoQ wrote:That is certainly not true. The main problem is, in fact, an incendiary mortar cobra hover (deadly damage, insane range, fast speed ... a single unit can win the game).
i dont understard why incendiary mortar should be used on weak cobra??
you need bombard and inferno ready, why you need weak body if you can use python?

incendiary mortar on hover cannot shoot on the run, no fast speed here, you need stop and wait 1-2 sec before it turn in attack direction
insane range - when you have sensor
... you can win with incendiary mortar, but its hard and need good skill + luck, and you already nerfed damage

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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by NoQ » 16 May 2012, 07:41

i dont understard why incendiary mortar should be used on weak cobra??
Because you have overteched in that direction? Because it's cheaper? Because the enemy won't reach it anyway, so why bother? I have seen this sort of games, that was crazy (:

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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by NoQ » 16 May 2012, 08:54

Nerfed bombs much more seriously, need some feedback to find out if it's closer to balanced.
Right now at the start of a T3 game (2 bomb upgrades, 6 wall upgrades) a single thermite bomb burns a directly affected wall segment down to around 30% of the original hp (red).

Inferno price 80->110 incend.radius 64->48 incend.damage 40->32
Thermite Cyborg incend.damage 38->32
Plasmite price 80->130 incend.radius 96->60 incend.damage 63->50
Incendiary Mortar price 150->200 pit price 135->170 incend.damage 30->22
Incendiary Howitzer price 250->300 emplacement price 325->400 incend.damage 60->32
Minipod range 1152->1088
MRA damage 34->28 reload time 145->165
HMG damage 18->17
AG fire pause 3->4 damage 20->19
TAG price 100->120 fire pause 3->4 damage 30->28
AG Cyborg fire pause 4->5 damage 20->18
MG ROF upgrades 15%/30%/45% -> 17%/34%/50%.
MC research points 4800->3600
HPV research points 7200->4800
Gates price 25->75
Whirlwind fire pause 3->4
Thermite Bombs incend.damage 200->75
Plasmite Bombs incend.damage 200->100
Cannon Fortress price 1000->800 range 1792->1280

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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by Reg312 » 16 May 2012, 12:34

NoQ wrote:Nerfed bombs much more seriously, need some feedback to find out if it's closer to balanced.
ok, now it looks like in my old "high oil balance mod" :)
i think price of these bombs now can be reduced, because they was not so OP in low oil games

another suggection: split bombs damage into 2 parts (salvo rounds = 2)
because thermal armor will applied twice


plasmite bombs can be a bit stronger because they appears later and they very slow

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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by Iluvalar » 16 May 2012, 15:45

Reg312 wrote: ok, now it looks like in my old "high oil balance mod" :)
i think price of these bombs now can be reduced, because they was not so OP in low oil games
I'll repeat this one, please pay attention : reducing price improve HIGH OIL more. 6vs3 is better than 2vs1
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.

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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by Reg312 » 16 May 2012, 15:58

Iluvalar wrote:
Reg312 wrote: ok, now it looks like in my old "high oil balance mod" :)
i think price of these bombs now can be reduced, because they was not so OP in low oil games
I'll repeat this one, please pay attention : reducing price improve HIGH OIL more. 6vs3 is better than 2vs1
if damage nerfed in 2 times then price can be reduced a bit, do you agree?
ilu when you played high oil last time? :P
i did not understood whole 100% of meaning of your message, but i can say in high oil game when you have opportunity to kill enemy immediately then you can skip other tasks and produce only thermite vtols and +20% price or -20% price affects nothing here...
we have 5 factories and they producing vtols non-stop
vtols can defend you from any ground attack (if you have some walls + defenses from previous stage of game)
so lesser price or higher price... what sense price have here? iluvalar, i wait 10 lines of formulas and 1 diagramm

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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by Iluvalar » 16 May 2012, 16:16

Reg312 wrote: i did not understood whole 100% of meaning of your message
The grouping advantage is given by the formula (f^2+f)/2 . So 2 figures in group can kill 3 figures in a row. This is a 50% boost for grouping. However 4 figures will kill 10 in a row. That's 150% boost !! That mean that the higher the budget, the bigger a variation of price will have effect.

+20% price or -20% price affects nothing here...
-20% price is a ~40% boost in high oil and ~30% boost in low oilé
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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by Reg312 » 16 May 2012, 16:38

Iluvalar wrote:
Reg312 wrote: That mean that the higher the budget, the bigger a variation of price will have effect.
i think your formula does not works for high oil games or works only in specified stages of game
if you mean games with 20-30 oil per players (not max 40) then this formula works more often...

low oil: you make 3 vtols and attack ---> you make 4 vtols and attack
high oil: you make 5 vtols per 1 time in 5 factories and attack ---> the same, you cannot make more

better way to handle balance in high oil - increase build time for OP weapons

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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by NoQ » 16 May 2012, 17:18

We can increase build time for fortresses (?)

Anyway, i need more ideas or test results about bombs (we're in a hurry, but i don't have time to run the tests myself). How do they behave against tracked tanks now? in v0.8? I think we need to release 1.0 and leave it as is till the next round, and i think i'd prefer v0.8 to v0.9 for that (smaller changes won't make things worse, but bigger may).

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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by Iluvalar » 16 May 2012, 17:34

2 Reg : sorry but i disagree, I always lack of power even in mega high oil. Every drip of power is always a new force in play.
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Re: Yet another balance proposal.

Post by Reg312 » 16 May 2012, 19:02

Iluvalar wrote:2 Reg : sorry but i disagree, I always lack of power even in mega high oil. Every drip of power is always a new force in play.
i agree, i just saying that your formula is not exact. and it is more wrong when formula applied to vtol thermite bombs
1) incendiary damage is main part of damage (in current warzone stats) (about 90% or 80% of all damage)
2) incendiary damage does not stack
so HP increased more than damage when we lowering price and increasing count of our thermite vtols
3) [high oil games] formula works when you attack all time and lost units all time
and it does not work/ or work less when you reached unit limit (for example you have army of expensive units and 50 vtols =135)

price -20% ≠ 40% boost

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