Many ideas can't be done right now

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Iluvalar
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Many ideas can't be done right now

Post by Iluvalar »

There is many ideas that I believe people wants that we just can't push into the game right now. It's all due to the same reason, so i gonna just argue for the power producing structures (which I think it's on itself a big part).

The problem is the research progression rate. This is how much you get of bonus % for a given amount of power. This research progression is declining during the game and it is hardcoded into the mere shape of the techtree. More exaclty, because the number of branches are variable and the tree suddenly give something unrelated with the current research, we can't in any easy way slow down, increase or turn quadratic the research progression of the game.
Spoiler:
This have saddly an important impact of MANY ideas that would be orginal. Starting with power production structures. Since the game constanly offer to the players the choice between a power upgrade (or other upgrade that would have similar effect) and unit production. The player spend in research for long term and units for short term and find his own equilibrium. However, if we want the nuclear reactor to be an interesting but not forced option, we'll need to make it a similar investment than the research. But HOW ?

Code: Select all

    $37  = +25% =125% - Power Module
    $187 = +20% =150% - Gas Turbine Generator
    $187 = +16.6% = 175% - Gas Turbine Generator Mk2
    $187 = +14.1% = 200% - Gas Turbine Generator Mk3
    $281 = +15% = 230% - Vapor Turbine Generator
    $375 = +13% = 260% - Vapor Turbine Generator Mk2
   $375 =  +11.5% =  290% - Vapor Turbine Generator Mk3
As you can see, every upgrade cost more and do less. As a result, the will be a point in the game where th reactor will necessarily produce more outcome than the research. The good players will ALL abruptly stop research and jump to the reactors. Depending on the amount of oil they have.

We can't straighten that up without affecting so much the shape of the tech tree that it would be faster and cleaner to make a new one. That's how i came up with NRS, because it was my only mean to add so much new things. I

I believe the only way we can increase the amount of things in the game is to talk about a new consistent with itself tech-tree form. Otherwise we can forget to add anything new altogether..
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Giani
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Re: Many ideas can't be done right now

Post by Giani »

What you want to do is to make wz like in NRS??
(I couldn't understand what you want)
Or you are saying that mods don't work on beta?
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Iluvalar
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Re: Many ideas can't be done right now

Post by Iluvalar »

We need to conceive a tech-tree that is rational and don't require construction upgrade to develop flaming bombs.

If the construction of the tech tree is simple and codified, we will be able to control the progression speed of it and make it constant.
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Giani
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Re: Many ideas can't be done right now

Post by Giani »

Iluvalar wrote:We need to conceive a tech-tree that is rational and don't require construction upgrade to develop flaming bombs.

If the construction of the tech tree is simple and codified, we will be able to control the progression speed of it and make it constant.
You mean to make the tech tree like in NRS?
If you do, that would make noobs always go for the most expensive and better looking weapons.
And it would a different game.
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Re: Many ideas can't be done right now

Post by Searge-Major »

Iluvalar wrote:I believe the only way we can increase the amount of things in the game is to talk about a new consistent with itself tech-tree form. Otherwise we can forget to add anything new altogether..
Iluvalar, do you mean simply a restructuring of the tech tree? This I would agree with in some part, but I can't see how it should be done. Any changes would, as you said, make a vast difference to gameplay as we now know it.
We need to conceive a tech-tree that is rational and don't require construction upgrade to develop flaming bombs.

If the construction of the tech tree is simple and codified, we will be able to control the progression speed of it and make it constant.
Certainly agreed about the rationality; however some similar things which are complained about do actually have a connection. But why thermal armour requires sensor I don't understand. :wink:

#--------------------#

I guess what I want to know is, what sort of restructuring? If you take the power example you stated, and changed it to something like this:

Code: Select all

    $37   = +25% = 125% - Power Module
    $187 = +25% = 156.3% - Gas Turbine Generator
    $187 = +25% = 195.3% - Gas Turbine Generator Mk2
    $187 = +25% = 244.1% - Gas Turbine Generator Mk3
    $281 = +25% = 305.1% - Vapor Turbine Generator
    $375 = +25% = 381.5% - Vapor Turbine Generator Mk2
   $375 =  +25% = 476.8% - Vapor Turbine Generator Mk3
Each upgrade has the same effect: multiplying the current output by 1.25. The end result is 476.8% output as opposed to 290% output, over 160% of the original effect. This would make low oil games turn into medium oil, and high oil games would be "off the charts". :shock:

I'm fairly certain you didn't mean it this way, but maybe if you could clarify? :hmm:

#--------------------#

Perhaps another way to modify power would be to have the major techs (Power Module, Gas Turbine Mk1, Vapour Turbine Mk1, etc) provide the greatest benefit at the greatest cost, and have the upgrades cost less, while still boosting the major tech.

Code: Select all

    $30  = +25% = 125% - Power Module
    $175 = +20% = 150% - Gas Turbine Generator
    $125 = +10% = 165% - Gas Turbine Generator Mk2
    $150 = +15% = 190% - Gas Turbine Generator Mk3
    $375 = +20% = 228% - Vapor Turbine Generator
    $275 = +10% = 250% - Vapor Turbine Generator Mk2
    $325 = +15% = 290% - Vapor Turbine Generator Mk3
    (Values rounded to nearest %)
This provides bonuses much closer to the originals, the progression is not linear, but the costs have been changed to compensate.

#--------------------#

As for the tech tree and how everything interacts, well, that is far too big a subject to cover in one (or even a few) posts. :wink:
Iluvalar wrote:I believe the only way we can increase the amount of things in the game is to talk about a new consistent with itself tech-tree form. Otherwise we can forget to add anything new altogether..
I hope this feedback was helpful, or at least useful. :)

Regards,
Searge
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Shadow Wolf TJC
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Re: Many ideas can't be done right now

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC »

I'm currently pretty far into working on a new mod with a new tech tree that emphasizes a somewhat more fluid approach towards tech tree progression, that introduces players to new technologies that change up gameplay at a more gradual pace. Upgrades would provide more exponential bonuses than additive ones (such as researching a damage upgrade would provide a 17% increase from the previous upgrade, and a 36% increase from the upgrade before that, and a 59% increase from the upgrade before that still, etc.), and researching new technologies would not be as potentially decisive or game-changing at the start of T1 as in the current Warzone 2100 multiplayer gameplay. For example, whereas, in vanilla Warzone 2100, players would usually research the Machinegun 1st, and have a choice of whether to pursue research for either Twin Machineguns, Light Cannons, Flamers, or Mini-Rocket Pods next, players would instead, in my mod, require researching Light Cannons as a prerequisite towards researching Mini-Rocket Pods, while Flamers would be moved so far down the research line that players would most likely research Twin Machineguns or Light Cannons, but not Mini-Rocket Pods, before they could ever research Flamers. Also, it would introduce a wide variety of weapons from various weapon lines in order to help patch up some of their weaknesses, like an anti-cyborg flak cannon, or an anti-vehicle gattling gun. All this is to give technologically disadvantaged players more of a fighting chance to make a comeback in the event that the opponent is able to build units that have a favorable matchup against the player's own units, without requiring players to switch to different weapon lines in the process as much, if at all.
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Iluvalar
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Re: Many ideas can't be done right now

Post by Iluvalar »

Giani wrote:What you want to do is to make wz like in NRS??
Giani wrote:You mean to make the tech tree like in NRS?
think about it like this.

Where would go a new line of long range flamer typed weapon in the tech-tree ?

If you can answer that question with some precision and certainty, you know your tech-tree is constant and rational.

In NRS, we know it would be straight on R-Start, as much possible between the flamers and the laser in between 2 weapons that are bad against cyborgs. So... probably beside the bombs

In CTT (another of my older tech tree) we knew it would be somewhere straight on a techlevel, between techlevel 12 and 15 maybe... depending on it strenght.

In actual tech-tree... ... Honestly we have not a single clue where it could be. Any guess is possible. It could just be anywhere, All we know is that it will probably be hided behind 4-5 weird unrelated prerequisites...

So no, i'm not asking to clone NRS or CTT, but we need something coherent.


2Searge-Major :
The best is a constant proportional progression = 100$ = 15% (proportional to what you are now). But for that to be fixed, we need to know how sum together mg ROF and research upgrades. And we need to sum such bonus in some regular, way. That's why we need the shape of the tree to be much more regular.
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Re: Many ideas can't be done right now

Post by iap »

Just remember that constant multiply means exponential change. So lowering the percent in each upgrade is very rational.
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Iluvalar
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Re: Many ideas can't be done right now

Post by Iluvalar »

Why exponential change should be irrationnal ?

3'000'000 BC rocks
1'000'000 BC wood staff
300'000 BC club
100'000 BC spear
30'000 BC Sarissa (long spear)
10'000 BC Bronze sword
1000 Iron sword
1500 long bow
1800 rifle
1950 ak47
2012 XM-25 (bullet sizeed smart grenade which shoot 1000m away)

It seem at least that i have the realism on my side :P

Edit: And i'll just repeat that again, many new interesting ideas, like power producing structure, can't exist in the game without a proportionnal research progression. Read my first post, the structure would en up forced on everyone or else useless.
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Re: Many ideas can't be done right now

Post by iap »

Oh, don't get me wrong, it's true that the research path can be... not clear. I just mentioned the change in power upgrade you posted. By the way, I think that this kind of radical change you suggest in the game itself, could make alot of players confused.
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Re: Many ideas can't be done right now

Post by NoQ »

Iluvalar wrote:3'000'000 BC rocks
1'000'000 BC wood staff
300'000 BC club
100'000 BC spear
30'000 BC Sarissa (long spear)
10'000 BC Bronze sword
1000 Iron sword
1500 long bow
1800 rifle
1950 ak47
2012 XM-25 (bullet sizeed smart grenade which shoot 1000m away)
Last time i heard that, it's not exponential, but rather hyperbolical (something like 1/(c-x), where c is around 2000, getting to infinity in a finite amount of time, the equation being y'=y²), and this growth is said to have stopped (?) Of course, some other parameters are taken, that can be represented numerically :oops:
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