How to fix the problem with oil-denying half-built derricks?

The place to discuss balance changes for future versions of the game.
(Master releases & 3.X)

Which solution do you like the most?

Poll ended at 09 Mar 2012, 14:31

Allow trucks to take over enemy partially-built structures (including derricks) by continuing building from where the enemy trucks left off, and finishing them up. (May only work if no enemy trucks are currently working on building the structure.)
9
14%
Allow trucks to demolish enemy partially-built structures (including derricks) while no enemy trucks are working on them. (The rate at when they're demolished may be reduced for enemy structures.)
6
9%
Reducing the time that oil wells burn in proportion to how complete the derrick was upon destruction (meaning that, if the derrick was only slightly built, then the well would be on fire for like only 1 second).
12
18%
Only set the well on fire if the derrick was already completed when it was destroyed.
11
17%
Give trucks the ability to capture enemy structures, including derricks, regardless of how complete they are (similar to NEXUS Link Turrets, though probably much less powerful).
3
5%
Have incomplete structures decay (auto-demolish), and eventually disappear, over time if they're not being worked on. (For Oil Derricks, they would not cause the well to catch on fire upon disappearing.)
9
14%
Add a price to Oil Derricks.
8
12%
Other. (Please explain.)
4
6%
This shouldn't be fixed at all!
3
5%
 
Total votes : 65

Re: How to fix the problem with oil-denying half-built derri

Postby Reg312 » 15 Mar 2012, 18:58

@Iluvalar, few notes about NRS:
1) players dont know is NRS balanced or not balanced
2) players like NRS not because it possibly balanced, but by another reasons :)

Iluvalar wrote:That would never work if we do polls and huge discussion of 1 month between each little change.


poll would never work - agreed.
and yes, better form some work group for focused testing of changes
ah, and again i repeat: balance won't work. Balance does not exist.
if players use 10% of weapons is "imbalanced", but they cannot use 100% weapons with equal probability
so i ask to forgot about "balance" but think about fun and gameplay

and little changes step by step will work!
i prefer litle changes as smooth begin of process of "balancing" and later more larger changes can be included

i'm boring with disputes about "balance".. impossible to convince anybody in anything, we really have too much conversations and less real tests, btw who want make work and test when this work never will be acceptedand some dumbass will cry
is someone get chance to change "balance" here, i just ask you to care not only about 5% pro-players :)
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Re: How to fix the problem with oil-denying half-built derri

Postby iap » 15 Mar 2012, 19:00

Iluvalar wrote:But, you must be aware, I made balance changes around v54 (dec. 15) that slowly changed the habit of the players.

Maybe it's better that for most cases, the players will re-balance themselves to the game, and not the other way around. After all, this is an evolutionary process that will never end.

The major changes should be done in changing the behavior of things, or if there is a really extraordinary bias that make everyone don't like the game.

i just ask you to care not only about 5% pro-players

Yeah!
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Re: How to fix the problem with oil-denying half-built derri

Postby zany » 15 Mar 2012, 19:15

Iluvalar wrote:
aubergine wrote:The balance experiment releases will be clearly marked as "we've changed something, we're not telling you what, if the majority of people testing this release like it we'll incorporate it in to the game".

There would be no more than 6 of these per year, we don't want to overload testers, and we want to have each experiment run for at least a month.

What do you think?

I did that for NRS, mostly posting the changelog after a couple of games.

But, you must be aware, I made balance changes around v54 (dec. 15) that slowly changed the habit of the players. The last change I made to correct that was in v100. So we got 3 months and 46 versions needed to see the habit changing and correcting it properly (is still have too much borg rushers in my mod, but they now lose more often than they win...)

That would never work if we do polls and huge discussion of 1 month between each little change. We need someone or a small group with the skills and the capacity to make such change in a boring mod. We need the capacity to promise them that the final result will be used. Per told me that my last balance proposition would be at least tested correctly, but he lied. It never made it into the game, but still players found a way to complain about it...

:roll: get a grip on reality. all your changes have all been shot down for good reason and you keep trying to push your changes to everyone else since you think you know it all :roll:
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Re: How to fix the problem with oil-denying half-built derri

Postby Per » 15 Mar 2012, 20:04

Iluvalar wrote:yeah, I recall I asked you if I could have the chance to have it tested in a release if I made that cherry-pick balance. Obviously, I spent my time to make it. So you must have told me something reassuring about that...

Is that the basis you have for accusing someone of lying...? O_o

It was the intention that it was to be in the final release. It was in a beta release. It was apparently a bad idea. Mistakes result in wasted time, all the time. Get over it.
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Re: How to fix the problem with oil-denying half-built derri

Postby effigy » 15 Mar 2012, 20:17

Iluvalar wrote:
effigy wrote:
Iluvalar wrote:....
It never made it into the game, but still players found a way to complain about it...


I insist these things should be promoted with a mod either in the Showcase or Development forum.


So ? How was mine ? You probably hosted a dozen of time now with plenty of players I guess... :roll:


Are you talking about your body / incen mortor changes or NRS? I don't remember a mod for your body changes, but I remember not noticing them in a beta or master snapshot release that caused some controversy. IIRC that release wasn't around very long, nor were many players playing snapshots/betas.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241
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Re: How to fix the problem with oil-denying half-built derri

Postby Iluvalar » 15 Mar 2012, 20:40

iap wrote:
Iluvalar wrote:But, you must be aware, I made balance changes around v54 (dec. 15) that slowly changed the habit of the players.

Maybe it's better that for most cases, the players will re-balance themselves to the game, and not the other way around. After all, this is an evolutionary process that will never end.

The major changes should be done in changing the behavior of things, or if there is a really extraordinary bias that make everyone don't like the game.

My point was more to point out that, changes in the balance can take a long time before it change the behavior of the players. It can be hard to track them down.

Reg312 wrote:@Iluvalar, few notes about NRS:
1) players dont know is NRS balanced or not balanced

The progression speed for research in NRS is now extremely low. If I was making even a small mistake in balance, some lines would be 20-30 minutes behind in research and they would be unplayable.

I also agree, let's talk about playability more than perfect balance :) .

zany wrote: :roll: get a grip on reality. all your changes have all been shot down for good reason and you keep trying to push your changes to everyone else since you think you know it all :roll:

I'm waiting some exemples...

Per wrote:It was apparently a bad idea.

Really ?
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.
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