Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

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Rman Virgil
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by Rman Virgil »

Emdek wrote:bendib, this is not museum, I guess that original authors would make similar changes that could affect gameplay if they would be still in charge of developing it (looking at changelog they made lots of changes that could be currently criticized).

But it's true that we should have mods that restores old behaviors (but for such small things they fit more into category of mutators from UT and could be simply scripts injected into game environment) or detailed options (like host settings of games like Quake or UT).

And yes, I've given examples from Unreal Tournament and Quake, but that doesn't mean that after borrowing such ideas Warzone would turn into their clones. ;-)
Emdek wrote:.....

For me best solution would be to allow changes in core but always give way to revert them for individual games by applying mods / mutators / options.

Personally I think that scripted mutators would be best, but would require changes in engine (to allow them to change game mechanics).
+1

Back in the fall of 2004 after Alex McClean told me the WZ source would finally be liberated by the end of the year the community had extensive discussions over this very issue for months. At the end, the consensus was as you have here articulated it for how to proceed going forward with the games evolution.

When I say the community of 2004 I am refering to the folks who knew WZ creators first hand, worked on keeping the game alive and also liberating the source between 1999 - 2004..

- Regards, RV. :hmm:

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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by JDW »

Emdek wrote:JDW, this could be result of applying such rule (allow to takeover and complete building) to all structures (exceptions should be avoided). But such thing could be avoided by disallowing to take over structures in close proximity of HQ (would be +1 to have it, as kind of protection). Also proximity could affect take over time for other structures (closer to base -> longer delay).

For me best solution would be to allow changes in core but always give way to revert them for individual games by applying mods / mutators / options.
Personally I think that scripted mutators would be best, but would require changes in engine (to allow them to change game mechanics).
Well, that looks like a complicated solution to a simple problem. I'm not saying it might not work though.

But anyway, for now, after reading everyone's opinions, and being totally unbiased, I would have to say that making well-burn-time proportional to the half built completed percentage would be good enough. So players still get to have their burning wells and not much change done here to the dynamics.

Currently the burn time for destroying a complete derrick is one minute. So that would mean,

50 % completed derrick destroyed -> 30 seconds burn time
10 % completed derrick destroyed -> 6 seconds burn time
5 % (and below) completed derrick destroyed -> 3 seconds burn time

I think players who try to delay the opponents from obtaining their power on time usually build around 10% or less (just a guess) completed derricks in the opponent's base. And sending lots of trucks to get a higher percentage of completed derricks to do this would then be more of a risk.
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by Emdek »

JDW, yes, that simpler solution would be good too (in fact both could work in parallel, but this one is less controversial I think).
But I'm not sure it this should be fully linear relationship, for small completion value I would just skip it.

Also it could burn longer for finished only ones, for two reasons (quite weak points, but whatever):
- "realistic" (yes, this is not simulation, I know ;-)), as there should be oil to burn only after completing, when extraction has started;
- "fairness", as the source which we want to take over was already used (or ready to use) by someone else.

However simple linear relationship should be enough (although I would still skip some initial percentages to make fire animation look sensible).

One more thing, we could have later available technology (turret or truck ability) to extinguish fire faster. ;-)
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by Reg312 »

effigy wrote:Museam...no. But it has been a staple of low oil maps.
I'm not sure why this would need changing. I recommend anyone having issues competing for oil visit IRC #warzone2100-games and try to find some one at their skill level to match up against or a pro willing to train them.
effigy, do you suggested to train people to use half-built derricks? i cannot understand it...
bendib wrote:/me predicts some moderator will lock this topic because he doesn't like people disagreeing
i see 1 man disagreeing, and bunch of people who agreed
and its bad turn - ask moderator to close topic where you disagreeing...

half-build derricks is NOT core of game! "oil hunt" must be stopped! its just bug, and we all are bug users!

People who was agreed to fix half-build derricks (by some way): JDW, Terminator , Shadow Wolf TJC , aubergine, Iluvalar, NoQ, ODDity, zany. Berg, Emdek
also by my opinion Iluvalar and NoQ is super-pro gamers and experts, their votes have higher value :)
= community agreed.
next discussion - its only "how to"

again, for me easiest solution is just set price of oil derrick
if player want to take enemy's oil with 1 truck, he should pay for it
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by Berg »

Reg312 wrote:People who was agreed to fix half-build derricks (by some way): JDW, Terminator , Shadow Wolf TJC , aubergine, Iluvalar, NoQ, ODDity, zany. Berg, Emdek
From what I understand the question I asked was answered.
Exploiting the system is what the answer was by building half a derrick the player basically prevents the enemy from obtaining that oil leaving them without that resource they do this with this tactic in mind.

I have not come across this in multi player although I only play honest folks it seems to me that it is a system that is susceptible to exploitation..

In the short term I would refuse to play those that use this method in the long term the system needs fixing..

As the dev's have control whether this is fixed or not thats up to them.

I did read one suggestion remove the burn time for unfinished derricks this sounds like a reasonable solution. It is not a fix all for the exploiter but its a start.

I suggest making half build derricks subtract from build derricks if you have 4 half build derricks and 4 built derricks nun should work till the half built are finished so for every 1/2 build it disables a built derrick.
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC »

@bendib: Although I am likewise against giving Trucks the ability to take over enemy partially-built structures by being the ones to complete them (so -1 support from me for Emdek's solution), I am still in favor of trying to find a solution to this problem. While my idea of a solution involved giving Trucks the ability to demolish enemy partially-built structures (at a significantly reduced rate), I also liked that idea where the time that fires last on oil wells is proportional to how close the derrick was to completion (meaning that, the less/more complete a derrick, the shorter/longer the fire would last).

Edit: Perhaps it's now time to create a poll for this discussion?

Edit #2: I've gone ahead and created a new poll for people to vote on which solution(s) should be implemented in order to fix this problem.
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by Reg312 »

2Shadow Wolf TJC: pls add my solution to poll "just set price of derrick to 20$" :)

also please take look at NoQ's notes:
NoQ wrote: Because in every game on Startup, i *have* to half-build all 9 oils at my side, otherwise enemy trucks can spoil them long before my first tank is out (especially when i'm doing tech to halftracks).
decreasing burn time DOES NOT solve the issue, it still "truck race" to spoil oil resources
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC »

Done, though it resetted the poll in the process, so those that voted may have to recast their votes.
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by JDW »

Reg312 wrote:again, for me easiest solution is just set price of oil derrick
if player want to take enemy's oil with 1 truck, he should pay for it
I understand the logic behind this suggestion, and no doubt, it is a good one, because players would have to pay the full price of the derrick which would cost quite a lot if many of them were built.

But I see a few issues with this suggestion. There was a reason why the price was kept at $0 , and I'm sure you know why. But consider this as well, the derricks are useless by themselves to generate power, and so we require a power generator which costs $50 . So we should take that into consideration as well.

Now, many a times, the average player miscalculates his build order and ends up stuck without power, as you may have seen in some high power games where players may sometimes ask for power from their allies as they would somehow get broke that they can't even build a power generator, they would perhaps have derricks, but they are still useless without power generators. And if derricks were given a price then it would add to more power having to be borrowed if they are lucky enough to have teammates who can help them out.

Lets say having a price is a good solution, but here you have another problem, that of setting the right price. If set too high then you'll have some average players going broke on a 1v1 and unable to recover. But, more importantly, If set too low then players may not consider it too much of a loss but rather as an investment either as a capping of that particular well, or delaying the opponent from utilizing his power on time so they will still go ahead and make all those half-builds.
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by Emdek »

JDW, price issue could be solved that way that when player has no power income then it would allowed to built up to one derrick and power generator (to have total one of both types, not one additional) "on credit", which would be paid from first income from them.
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC »

@JDW: I may have already proposed this before, but maybe players could be given a tiny trickle of power each second at all times, in a similar manner as how, in Supreme Commander 1 and 2, the ACU that players start off with (and that, if destroyed, would automatically cause the player to lose the match in Assassination games) generates a tiny trickle of mass and energy each second.
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by Emdek »

Shadow Wolf TJC, yep someone suggested that some time ago (I was unsure, though about Per, but not 100% sure), so I've not written about this, since that income could be too slow.
Now I find that income from only one derrick would be also too slow, so lets say that credit would allow to built one power generator (if we have no power generators) and allow to built up to four derricks in total.
As mentioned above such credit would be taken over from first income from power generator or recycling (would work in a bit similar way as red power bar).
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by JDW »

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:in a similar manner as how, in Supreme Commander 1 and 2
Be careful what you say boy, the DO-NOT-CLONE-OTHER-GAMES sharks are always swimming by. :D

That also works I suppose. But then you have lots of other issues to deal with because lots of times players power level will be near zero, and the power system in 3.1 works differently than in 2.3.9 . You really should play more multiplayer to understand this. Come start today? :)
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by Cyp »

If changing anything, Warzone 2100 becomes a clone of all other games. Therefore, all other games are identical?
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Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Post by JDW »

Cyp wrote:If changing anything, Warzone 2100 becomes a clone of all other games. Therefore, all other games are identical?
Good point :lol2: :lol2: :lol2:
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