Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

The place to discuss balance changes for future versions of the game.
(Master releases & 3.X)

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Shadow Wolf TJC » 08 Mar 2012, 15:34

JDW wrote:Be careful what you say boy, the DO-NOT-CLONE-OTHER-GAMES sharks are always swimming by. :D

That also works I suppose. But then you have lots of other issues to deal with because lots of times players power level will be near zero, and the power system in 3.1 works differently than in 2.3.9 . You really should play more multiplayer to understand this. Come start today? :)

Cyp wrote:If changing anything, Warzone 2100 becomes a clone of all other games. Therefore, all other games are identical?

It seems to me that, the more mature an industry becomes, the harder it is to create something that's truly innovative. :hmm:
Creator of Warzone 2100: Contingency!
Founder of Wikizone 2100: http://wikizone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Wikizone_2100
User avatar
Shadow Wolf TJC
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1047
Joined: 16 Apr 2011, 05:12
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Emdek » 08 Mar 2012, 15:51

Shadow Wolf TJC, well, it looks like that, but there are still some new concepts showing up. ;-)
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


Beware! Mad Qt Evangelist.
User avatar
Emdek
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1329
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 13:14
Location: Poland

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Shadow Wolf TJC » 08 Mar 2012, 16:16

There are indeed, but compared to, say, 15 or 20 years ago, how hard was it for them to come up with something that another hasn't already come up with in history (whether it's the distant past, or as recent as a second ago)?
Creator of Warzone 2100: Contingency!
Founder of Wikizone 2100: http://wikizone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Wikizone_2100
User avatar
Shadow Wolf TJC
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1047
Joined: 16 Apr 2011, 05:12
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Emdek » 08 Mar 2012, 16:20

Shadow Wolf TJC, it's hard to compare.
Creativity level depends from person to person, already invented ideas counter rises but also new inspiration level increases (older ideas counts as new inspiration). ;-)
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


Beware! Mad Qt Evangelist.
User avatar
Emdek
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1329
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 13:14
Location: Poland

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby effigy » 08 Mar 2012, 17:25

Reg312 wrote:
effigy wrote:Museam...no. But it has been a staple of low oil maps.
I'm not sure why this would need changing. I recommend anyone having issues competing for oil visit IRC #warzone2100-games and try to find some one at their skill level to match up against or a pro willing to train them.

effigy, do you suggested to train people to use half-built derricks? i cannot understand it...


:O

No, I mean victims of 1/2 builds should seek some advice as to why they are loosing due to this strategy. For example, if you're playing StartUp and you can only get the 4 oil inside your base, because your opponent already took the rest of the oil on the map- you probably waited too long to send out trucks.

half-build derricks is NOT core of game! "oil hunt" must be stopped! its just bug, and we all are bug users!


"Oil Hunt" ?? You mean searching for oil? If this were a bug I guess all maps should have all their oil resources divided evenly and placed in each base location?

I'm pretty sure sending out trucks as early as possible to scout/capture oil is an intentional game design.

People who was agreed to fix half-build derricks (by some way): JDW, Terminator , Shadow Wolf TJC , aubergine, Iluvalar, NoQ, ODDity, zany. Berg, Emdek
also by my opinion Iluvalar and NoQ is super-pro gamers and experts, their votes have higher value :)
= community agreed.


Removing or Reducing burn time doesn't count? :'-(

again, for me easiest solution is just set price of oil derrick
if player want to take enemy's oil with 1 truck, he should pay for it


A small price to pay for a derrick is another idea I'm curious about. I'm having trouble visualizing it's impact on gameplay.

I did think of another excuse to keep 1/2 builds, though: :evil: Theiving AI team mates. :evil:

My complete opinion on allowing trucks to take over incomplete structures is: That's asinine. You're talking about giving them the Nexus Link turret (technology you don't get until very, very late game).

I really think we could just removed or proportion burn time to HP and have a nice compromise.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241
User avatar
effigy
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1217
Joined: 22 Jan 2010, 03:21

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Emdek » 08 Mar 2012, 17:33

effigy wrote:You're talking about giving them the Nexus Link turret (technology you don't get until very, very late game).

It's not the same. ;-)
But for sure has very similar effect.

effigy wrote:I really think we could just removed or proportion burn time to HP and have a nice compromise.

Yep, it would be OK for me too.
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


Beware! Mad Qt Evangelist.
User avatar
Emdek
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1329
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 13:14
Location: Poland

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Reg312 » 08 Mar 2012, 17:50

effigy wrote:"Oil Hunt" ?? You mean searching for oil? If this were a bug I guess all maps should have all their oil resources divided evenly and placed in each base location?


i meant "race of trucks"
1) if you know exact oil positions and enemy dont know ==> you have great advantage
2) if you sent trucks a bit earlier or your trucks was a bit lucky in pathfinding => you can take a lot of derricks and your enemy becomes disadvantaged
Example: see, you know 1 oil resource in center and 2 on sides
step 1: you reached center resource a bit late (it was half-built by enemy)
step 2: you reached first of side resources and you see it also was gotten by enemy with half-build
step 3: you reached second side resource and its was taken by enemy
result: you lose game only because you sent truck a second late
after 2 minutes you have 3-5 tanks to figh fo oil, but enemy already got more power and he have bigger army

i think original developers planned this steps by another way:
step 1: you was late on center resource
step 2: you got resouce on side, because enemy should finish his resource in center
Reg312
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Iluvalar » 08 Mar 2012, 18:01

effigy wrote:A small price to pay for a derrick is another idea I'm curious about. I'm having trouble visualizing it's impact on gameplay.

The effect will be that we start with a bit less power in low oil. (200$ for the 8 derricks)
In high oil, right now, the players will need to consider the oil as an higher priority. Since derrick and pgen will cost a big chunk of the starting power in total. But they will still have a nice game play.

(Hopefully, with real mod support, we'll be able to test the favored starting power and host with less or more starting oil as it is wanted)

The intended effect : There will be less derricks build in the mist of the battle. No one will want to build one if it can be destroyed in a few seconds.

and a bit more defending behaviour on the derricks
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.
User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Shadow Wolf TJC » 08 Mar 2012, 18:05

@Iluvalar: We could always adjust how much power players start off with. In fact, modders are already able to do just that by fiddling around in rules.js (or rules.slo for 2.3.x).
Creator of Warzone 2100: Contingency!
Founder of Wikizone 2100: http://wikizone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Wikizone_2100
User avatar
Shadow Wolf TJC
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1047
Joined: 16 Apr 2011, 05:12
Location: Raleigh, NC

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Iluvalar » 08 Mar 2012, 18:24

by "real map support" I meant the aptitude to select a mod and a map independently. So end users could select such basics settings easily without having to mapmod. Which is a OK effort for a major mod like NRS, but is a bit tedious for a little tuning of the starting power or such.
Heretic 2.3 improver and proud of it.
User avatar
Iluvalar
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1782
Joined: 02 Oct 2010, 18:44

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Emdek » 08 Mar 2012, 18:35

Initial power could be calculated by dividing total amount of derricks by total amount of players, but value should be not directly related to that ratio but there could be ranges, like for example ratio between 0 and 4 leads to some value etc.
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


Beware! Mad Qt Evangelist.
User avatar
Emdek
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1329
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 13:14
Location: Poland

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Giani » 09 Mar 2012, 02:00

Demolishing enemy half-built derricks can confuse noobs and the same whit auto demolish. If playing a game whit auto demolish and you see a oil well and you wont know if some tanks destroyed it or if it auto demolished . Trucks being able to take enemy half built derricks is a good idea. And wont confuse noobs or normal players.
My maps: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9501
User avatar
Giani
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 804
Joined: 23 Aug 2011, 22:42
Location: Argentina

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby effigy » 09 Mar 2012, 02:11

Reg312 wrote:
effigy wrote:"Oil Hunt" ?? You mean searching for oil? If this were a bug I guess all maps should have all their oil resources divided evenly and placed in each base location?


i meant "race of trucks"
1) if you know exact oil positions and enemy dont know ==> you have great advantage
2) if you sent trucks a bit earlier or your trucks was a bit lucky in pathfinding => you can take a lot of derricks and your enemy becomes disadvantaged
Example: see, you know 1 oil resource in center and 2 on sides
step 1: you reached center resource a bit late (it was half-built by enemy)
step 2: you reached first of side resources and you see it also was gotten by enemy with half-build
step 3: you reached second side resource and its was taken by enemy
result: you lose game only because you sent truck a second late
after 2 minutes you have 3-5 tanks to figh fo oil, but enemy already got more power and he have bigger army

i think original developers planned this steps by another way:
step 1: you was late on center resource
step 2: you got resouce on side, because enemy should finish his resource in center
\

Hmm... my view on that has been that learning oil locations is part of the learning the game. How many times do you need to play a map to remember where to go?
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241
User avatar
effigy
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1217
Joined: 22 Jan 2010, 03:21

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Reg312 » 09 Mar 2012, 10:01

effigy wrote:
Hmm... my view on that has been that learning oil locations is part of the learning the game. How many times do you need to play a map to remember where to go?


in my example you knew oil locations but you sent truck a bit later, your truck tries to get oil in same order as your enemy, in result you cannont get any oil
Reg312
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 681
Joined: 25 Mar 2011, 18:36

Re: Demolish/Auto-demolish Half Built enemy Derricks?

Postby Emdek » 09 Mar 2012, 10:11

effigy wrote:Hmm... my view on that has been that learning oil locations is part of the learning the game. How many times do you need to play a map to remember where to go?

At least once, but there is more than one map. ;-)
Nadszedł już czas, najwyższy czas, nienawiść zniszczyć w sobie.
The time has come, the high time, to destroy hatred in oneself.


Beware! Mad Qt Evangelist.
User avatar
Emdek
Regular
Regular
 
Posts: 1329
Joined: 24 Jan 2010, 13:14
Location: Poland

PreviousNext

Return to Balance