Hover propulsion (overpowered)

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Reg312
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Hover propulsion (overpowered)

Post by Reg312 » 02 Mar 2012, 11:30

Hover propulsion

i say: Hover propulsion is OP (overpowered)
from my game experience

why hover is OP (overpowered)
1) no alternative for hovers if we play on big maps (oil is spread on map)
*even if map have only narrow passages, hover player can make deadly backstabs at enemy's oil resources/bases
*player uses hover have great advantage in formation (hard to explain this)
...army effective if all tanks in good range to enemies
...hover player have much more chances make situation when his army attack enemy from flank and make all his army "in range" to flank of enemy army, in result 50 hover tanks kill 20 (from 50) enemy tanks, then repair and again kill another 30 tanks
2) no alternative for hovers if we play on maps with water passages
3) hover goes repair much more faster
* hover units can retreat from fire very fast to avoid death
4) hover tanks have more chances to avoid bombs and artillery fire (in current game accuracy kinda broken, so this #4 is not so valuable)
5) In team game, hover player can help allies very effective
*its impossible for another propulsion: pass to another side of map, help ally, and retreat to defend own positions

With all this advantages, hover have same almost same HP and armor as another propulsions
yes hovers vulnerable to artillery and MG, but from experience of most games (low oil) this does not sense
ok, you can say "use MRA", but even MRA is used on hovers in most cases
(artillery ineffective on low oil (first 40 minues?) and MG army on another propulsion cannot kill hover tanks)

I know only few cases when hover is not OP:
1) some high oil games where player blocks passages with defenses with bunch of mortars
2) some duel games where hover player has not enough time to backstab because he under attack all time
but even in this games, hover is strong enough and even better

Another problems with hovered tanks:
1) Some weapons is very effective with hover propulsion
*example: inferno
*some weapon effective only on hover propulsion
*hover propulsion is effective for ALL weapons (except long ranged artillery in case artillery war)
2) Hover breaks weight/engine "balance"
i mean: we cannot implement slow weapons in game, because any slow weapon become fast on hover
and even if we make weapon slow on hover propulsion, then on another propulsions this weapon become totally useless
3) map-makers forced to make narrow and complex (labyrynth) maps to avoid create "hover-only" maps
*even in classic pre-installed set of maps we have such "hover-only" maps (ziggurat at least)
*OP hover makes little maps better in most cases
4) i feel: hover makes heavy bodies stronger (hard to explain)

my conclusion: hover propulsion breaks many game situations and its completely overpowered (overspeed)

Suggestion (ways to make hover more "balanced":
1) reduce speed of hover tanks (give more chances for another propulsion on big maps) 300=>260
2) increase weight of hover tanks (make more valuable weight of weapons) 200% => 300%
*note: this can make cannon line underpowered -> need also adjust cannons weight
3) slightly decrease HP of hover tanks 150% =>135%
4) adjust terrain modifiers to be more real
*in real life hover have 100% speed on water and flat ground (road), and hover is slow on rough ground or just not so fast
5) rebalance propulsions (improve wheels, improve tracks)
Last edited by Reg312 on 02 Mar 2012, 16:31, edited 2 times in total.

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aubergine
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Re: Hover propulsion (overpowered)

Post by aubergine » 02 Mar 2012, 12:33

One obvious question... what is to stop the opponent from using hovers as well? If they choose wrong units based on map / oil / etc then surely they deserve to fail?
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Re: Hover propulsion (overpowered)

Post by Reg312 » 02 Mar 2012, 13:02

aubergine wrote:One obvious question... what is to stop the opponent from using hovers as well? If they choose wrong units based on map / oil / etc then surely they deserve to fail?
not sure i understood your question
* hover tanks vulnerable to Machinegun and artillery (hover have bad modifiers, but with heavy bodies this modifiers dont work so badly)
* if you catch hovers in good place (if they cannot retreat) then you can kill it with cheap machineguns
another way - use MRA, but again you need push enemy or catch him somewhere
* value of hovers depends on map, and on some maps hover is not better than half-tracks
* on some maps is not too hard to block back and flank passages, on tunnel-like maps hovers not so strong

player need a bit more time&power to create hover army
you cannot stop him, but if you push enemy non-stop, it can be hard to switch to hovers for him
in some cases better continue producing half-tracks and dont switch to hovers
if you switched to hovers, return to another propulsion does not sense (again, exept high oil games with lots of artillery)

* also i noticed: hover tanks weak with medium or light bodies (they become very vulnerable weapons with low damage and high ROF like Machinegun and MRA)

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Re: Hover propulsion (overpowered)

Post by Terminator » 02 Mar 2012, 15:21

Agree with Reg312. I've suggested about hovers IMBA in time when Zarel was active in game-balance. May be ppl will hear you :)
As for suggestions: agree except "adjust terrain modifiers", I think its not necessary. Anyways its would need to be tested.
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Re: Hover propulsion (overpowered)

Post by effigy » 02 Mar 2012, 17:21

"*note: this can make cannon line underpowered -> need also adjust cannons weight " How will that effect the rest of the game?

Also, I haven't checked stats, but isn't hover as vunerable to cannon? I thought it's only strength was vs. Lancer. Maybe something changed from 2.3 to 3.1?
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241

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Re: Hover propulsion (overpowered)

Post by Reg312 » 02 Mar 2012, 17:37

effigy wrote:"*note: this can make cannon line underpowered -> need also adjust cannons weight " How will that effect the rest of the game?

Also, I haven't checked stats, but isn't hover as vunerable to cannon? I thought it's only strength was vs. Lancer. Maybe something changed from 2.3 to 3.1?
hover 5% more vulnerable to cannon than hracks
cannon -> hover = 120%
cannon -> htracks = 115%
cannon -> tracks = 105%

also hover is vulnerable to flamers, but it nicely compensated with speed
flamer -> tracks = 90%
flamer -> htrack = 100%
flamer -> hover = 130%

30% is big coefficient, but:
1) hover can leave inflamed area very fast (flamers do area damage)
2) only flamers on hover can kill another tanks on hover :)

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Re: Hover propulsion (overpowered)

Post by Iluvalar » 02 Mar 2012, 18:55

That's was in my balance change proposition :

A-1) Propulsions
Tracks (tracked01)* 84%
HP:300=>237
Hover (hover01)* 77%
HP:150=>93
Half-tracks (HalfTrack)* 86%
HP:200=>160

We see I hit the hover a lot more than the other propulsion.
Your changes look similar.. however I don't see why we should absolutely change the speed. A player that want speed should be able to chose that I think.
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Re: Hover propulsion (overpowered)

Post by Reg312 » 02 Mar 2012, 19:07

in original WZ (campaign) hover propulsion have 200 speed and its OK (in current balance hover have 300 speed)
i think such very fast units make game worse, even if this fast units is very weak

Speed in Warzone:
tracks 125
htrack 150
wheels 175
hover 200 300
i dont know who increased speed of hovers, but i think abitlity to cross water is enough for hovers
+ we should avoid drastic changes => we can decrease hover speed to 275 or to 260

anyway, my suggestions is "feel" suggestions, hard to explain.. :)
hovers with lowered speed is still fastest tanks, but they just need more time to pass to other side of map, more time for repair..
a bit more..

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Re: Hover propulsion (overpowered)

Post by Shadow Wolf TJC » 02 Mar 2012, 21:01

Nerfing hovers and buffing wheels, half-tracks, and tracks, is currently on my to-do list. Specifically, I'm planning on making hovers heavier than even tracks, so that heavier turrets would slow them down more than tracks.
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Re: Hover propulsion (overpowered)

Post by Reg312 » 02 Mar 2012, 23:33

i've prepared patch with propulsion adjustment.
Im my patch wheeled and tracked propulsion were also adjusted

*note all changes are small, and in this patch hover propulsion is still good (or best).

wheeled issues:
* totally useless

tracked propulsion issues:
* used very rare (have use only with long ranged artillery turrets, also can be used in high oil games in some cases)
* very slow
* dont usable with medium weight or heavy weight components
heavy cannon on tracks?? not in WZ multiplayer!

patch:
https://github.com/crabster/warzone2100 ... 463065d3ab

improved: wheeled, tracked
nerfed: hover

Code: Select all

 Changed item: Wheels [wheeled01]
	-Field Name: 'Build power'	old value:50	new value: 45
	-Field Name: 'Build points'	old value:50	new value: 45
	-Field Name: 'Body points'	old value:100	new value: 150
 Changed item: Tracks [tracked01]
	-Field Name: 'Build power'	old value:125	new value: 110
	-Field Name: 'Build points'	old value:125	new value: 110
	-Field Name: 'Weight'	old value:650	new value: 500
 Changed item: Hover [hover01]
	-Field Name: 'Weight'	old value:200	new value: 275
	-Field Name: 'Body points'	old value:150	new value: 140
	-Field Name: 'Max speed'	old value:300	new value: 260

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