Run and Hit anyway

[Iluvalar]

if you queue the move correctly in 3.1. Your units can hit and run before the order to run after you form the opponent is even received by the units. You are already safe and out of sight before he could take a move.

Now, I know that it was already a strategy used with mra hover. And we know how these MRA were hard to take down when well played. But now, I saw a good player doing it in 3.1 and that's another story. You just CANT make a timed move toward them. Only your first row of weapon will fire and if he have a repair station in the back... you have about no chance to kill any of them.

[NoQ]

if you queue the move correctly in 3.1. Your units can hit and run before the order to run after you form the opponent is even received by the units. You are already safe and out of sight before he could take a move.

Curious, i'll have a try (:

Also, MRA hovers are seriously underpowered in 2.3 due to desynchs (you may think they run away, but in fact they are already dead ... you can't even take out a MG tower from a distance, for on the other PC it just runs a suicide attack instead).

Also, what do you mean by a "timed move"? What's wrong with just constantly moving towards them? They will hit and run regardless anyway.

[Iluvalar]

by timed move i mean that the defender take a step forward at the same time the attack try to attack him. in 2.3 it result in your 2nd and 3rd row of units having the opportunity to shot. And hopefully get to kill some units in the hit and run group before they are away. But with the synch delay in 3.1, the mra are already out of range if you give the order to move forward.

[effigy]

I still don't understand what the "sync delay" has to do with this. I don't think the delay is that significant.

The best strategy I've found to combat hit-and-run is to charge them, in hopes that they get to their queued move before they reload. If this strategy is a success it's partly due to luck, but the only other defense against hit-and-run tactics is to turtle, or suicide flamers (if you have enough engine upgrades).

[Iluvalar]

I don't understand what you don't understand. The MRA unit can come unload his ammo and go back between the enemy can give an order and the execution.

[effigy]

I don't understand what you don't understand. The MRA unit can come unload his ammo and go back between the enemy can give an order and the execution.

As I said, I don't understand why you're blaming "sync delay" for the effectiveness of this strategy.

[NoQ]

As I said, I don't understand why you're blaming "sync delay" for the effectiveness of this strategy.

And i also don't understand why you're blaming 3.1 for effectiveness of this strategy, as if there were no sync delay in 2.3 (:

[Iluvalar]

I don't understand what you don't understand. The MRA unit can come unload his ammo and go back between the enemy can give an order and the execution.

As I said, I don't understand why you're blaming "sync delay" for the effectiveness of this strategy.

Before 3.1 the units were able to move BEFORE the mra return back out of sight.

@NoQ . in 2.3 i would see some of my units get a shot on the mra and i would kill some more units. And you would see anyway your units die after the 2 seconds delay. Both player gives the same order at the same moment, but the result is completely different.

[Berg]

You dont have to play 3.1 If your happy with 2.3 just use it.

If you want to fix these conflicts of your playing style and the games feel get you coding ears on and fix it.

For me I believe the changes your seeing is bugs being fixed mra has changed a little and tactics to use them has change hit and run yes and like all things you adapt or die..

The way of the world survival of the fittest.

[Cyp]

...

Before 3.1 the units were able to move BEFORE the mra return back out of sight.

No. Just no. 2.3 just did not work that way. Really. There was the illusion of them moving before the MRA returns from sight. And the MRA player wouldn't know how close to get when hitting and running. If the MRA palyer doesn't run before they see their MRA firing, they probably didn't run in time.

Basically, they can hit and run in 2.3, too. If you chase them with your own hovers, you might think you're shooting at the MRAs, but the health of the MRAs keeps going to 100% before you kill them. You are not shooting at the MRAs in any practical meaning of the word. No matter how many projectiles you see hitting the MRA tanks. While you see the MRAs shooting at you and killing your tanks. And the MRA player doesn't see anything shooting at all, just sees the enemy tanks mysteriously exploding. Unless someone's internet connection suddenly starts lagging enough, of course.

If the MRA player makes the fatal mistake of expecting to see the MRAs fire, before running, then of course the MRA player will end up losing tanks. But that's a newbie mistake. If you play 2.3, and try to psych out what mood the game is in, in order to figure out how to maximise the random explosions of the enemy and minimise your own random explosions, you can expect to lose no matter what.

Of course, that's just the average scenario. Maybe the other players just don't do anything for a few minutes, then your base and army suddenly explodes and a minute later, tanks suddenly teleport all over the place.

@NoQ . in 2.3 i would see some of my units get a shot on the mra and i would kill some more units. And you would see anyway your units die after the 2 seconds delay. Both player gives the same order at the same moment, but the result is completely different.

NoQ, apparently you didn't run soon enough. Or the connection suddenly went laggy. Maybe you made the mistake of letting your tanks fire before running. And you have to make sure you don't hit and run just as the connection is about to go laggy. Or maybe your opponent suddenly ordered the entire army to move, by clicking a few times a second, thereby increasing the lag.

Ordering some random tanks on the other side of the battlefield to move randomly is a good way of dealing with hover hit and runs. Unless everyone in the game has a high bandwidth connection, that is. Or the phase of the moon is wrong.

[NoQ]

but the health of the MRAs keeps going to 100% before you kill them

But i think if you actually see them die on your screen they won't rise from the dead later. And the resync is disabled for as long as you're watching. So there is some point after all

All right, suppose i agree that the balance have changed. Is the change heavy enough to be beyond the current precision of balancing? How do you suggest to fix it?

[Cyp]

...

But i think if you actually see them die on your screen they won't rise from the dead later. ...

Seems to be true for tanks. (Although occasionally they can keep killing your tanks 10 minutes after they died, depending on how bad 2.3's synch is at the time.) Somehow not true for buildings, even if I don't understand how.

All right, suppose i agree that the balance have changed. Is the change heavy enough to be beyond the current precision of balancing? How do you suggest to fix it?

No idea. My main point was that adding random lag-dependent explosions isn't the best way of obtaining balance.

2.3 was way too messed up for any kind of balance discussions to even make sense, it was like discussing how many angels can balance on the head of a pin... At least with 3.1 it's possible to meangingfully discuss whether or not something is balanced.

[NoQ]

No idea. My main point was ...

Emm, i was looking at Iluvalar when i said that, but didn't focus my eyes straightly enough

[Cyp]

No idea. My main point was ...

Emm, i was looking at Iluvalar when i said that, but didn't focus my eyes straightly enough

Well, so was I, actually (even if quoting you).

[effigy]

I don't understand what you don't understand. The MRA unit can come unload his ammo and go back between the enemy can give an order and the execution.

As I said, I don't understand why you're blaming "sync delay" for the effectiveness of this strategy.

Before 3.1 the units were able to move BEFORE the mra return back out of sight.

@NoQ . in 2.3 i would see some of my units get a shot on the mra and i would kill some more units. And you would see anyway your units die after the 2 seconds delay. Both player gives the same order at the same moment, but the result is completely different.

I understand you mean in general, and not in the game we played before you started talking about this, but in that game my units were taking damage.

I also understand that the back row of your units didn't get to shoot at mine. However, my back row also didn't get to shoot at yours. It would take some extreme micromanagement to get 25 mra hovers to move no further than their firing range at the same time.