Run and Hit anyway

The place to discuss balance changes for future versions of the game.
(Master releases & 3.X)

Re: Run and Hit anyway

Postby NoQ » 01 Mar 2012, 03:20

if it is your still having equal opportunities.
Not if you're using different sorts of units, requiring different amounts of micromanagement. Why doesn't anybody read the first post, anyway?
Still, from an enjoyable gameplay perspective, I'd much rather prefer to see rounds get fired from empty space near enemy units or defenses, or see units being destroyed shortly after seeing a seemingly deadly round miss them (and to see said round explode at the same time as the destroyed unit), than to see my own units not being able to follow orders in time, orders that could've saved their lives.
Bullets aren't really the issue, you'll in fact see teleporting units, so you will never know what exactly you need to do to save their lives in the first place. As i said, i'd prefer the game to freeze completely before orders are synchronized.
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Re: Run and Hit anyway

Postby effigy » 01 Mar 2012, 03:32

I'm getting the impression you haven't played 3.1 online.

Shadow Wolf TJC wrote:Still, from an enjoyable gameplay perspective, I'd much rather prefer to see rounds get fired from empty space near enemy units or defenses, or see units being destroyed shortly after seeing a seemingly deadly round miss them (and to see said round explode at the same time as the destroyed unit),


I'm not sure why anyone would want these things in a game that was designed with specifics and instead has random outcomes. None of those random events are guaranteed to happen. I don't see how anyone who understands the way certain propulsions/bodies/turrets interact with each other could be happy with random outcomes of using them.
than to see my own units not being able to follow orders in time, orders that could've saved their lives. :?


You've taken a few steps back in this conversation with that comment.
This is why some features aren't implemented: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=7490&view=unread#p87241
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Re: Run and Hit anyway

Postby Iluvalar » 01 Mar 2012, 04:42

Method #4 (2.3.9) sort of real for owner.
The units move instantly because the position from the owner perspective is considered to be the truth anyway. No orders except move or attack are synched AT ALL. The synch never correct the position of the unit as long as the non-owner look at the to avoid entirely the units jumping. Dead is dead : If a unit die, the non-owner send a signal that kill the owner unit.


Method #5 (2.3-ilu2¹) Real for owner.
The units move instantly because the position from the owner perspective is considered to be the truth anyway. The orders are synched correctly each .45 seconds but the positions are not if the non-owner look at the units and that the actual position of that unit is less than 3 tiles away from what the non-owner see preventing the units to unecessary jump. Dead is dead : If a unit die, the non-owner send a signal that kill the owner unit.

¹ much more 2.3.9 with some less bugs I found.
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Re: Run and Hit anyway

Postby Shadow Wolf TJC » 01 Mar 2012, 09:26

Thing is is that, no matter how good your connection may be, or how powerful your computer is, there will ALWAYS be latency between when the data is sent, and when the data is received at its destination. It WILL still take time for that information to reach its destination. How developers wish to deal with it is up to them, and it could affect the gameplay experience in a variety of ways that would be unfavorable for the players, ESPECIALLY for games that play in real-time. :|

Take Super Smash Bros. Brawl for example. It's a cross between a 2D platforming game and a fighting game, where players could control one of a bunch of Nintendo characters, as well as 3rd-party characters Solid Snake (from the Metal Gear (Solid) series) and Sonic the Hedgehog, as they beat the crap out of eachother. Now, when playing online, players noticed that there seemed to be this delay between pushing buttons to tell their character to perform certain actions, and said characters executing said actions. This input lag was caused by latency between systems trying to send data packets to other consoles in an attempt to remain in synch with eachother. In extreme cases, the game itself would lag as it waits for a response from the other systems. This input lag made players' characters feel more sluggish than they should've been otherwise, forcing players to input commands ahead of time to compensate. For some players (myself included), this was a killjoy in Brawl's online experience. :stare:

Now take Mario Kart Wii for example. It's a kart-racing game where the goal is to reach the finish line before other players can, though players are given items to help them mess up opposing players in various ways. However, unlike in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, players NEVER suffer from any input lag, even when there were latency issues with another system (which is a must for something requiring as much concentration as a racing game). While players might notice that some other players seem to "jitter" (even so, the game does do a good job at anticipating where players would go though, so jitter isn't usually noticeable), or that other players' weapons might appear to spawn from unusual places (when they should've spawned just behind their vehicles), or that other players might not seem to be affected by a weapon or obstacle that should've knocked them out on contact (sometimes only being affected a short time after they made contact with said weapon or obstacle), they'll also notice that whatever weapon or obstacle hits THEM will knock them out on contact. As such, even with connectivity issues with other players, players are still able to avoid other players' weapons (though they might have some trouble aiming some of their own weapons at laggy players, though this is a more minor issue compared to in Modnation Racers). Even today, this game serves as a nice role model for me to follow when deciding how to handle latency. :3

Now take Modnation Racers, another kart-racing game, for example. Like Mario Kart Wii, players suffer from no input lag. However, unlike Mario Kart Wii, whenever a weapon (including a sideswipe) fired by a player seems to hit another player, that other player would get knocked out, even if, for the other player, they didn't seem to get hit with anything. This would leave players dumbfounded, and frustrated, as to how they could've been hit when there wasn't anything dangerous around. :annoyed:

Finally, take Pokémon or Civilization for example. Both are turn-based games, so the only effect that poor latency could have on them is merely that it takes longer for the game to progress to the next turn.

In case anyone's wondering why I'm posting this, from the looks of things, it seemed as if the issue being debated in this thread is more of a problem with handling latency, which is why I'm proposing some possible ways to at least minimize its impact on the gameplay experience.
effigy wrote:I'm getting the impression you haven't played 3.1 online.

Sorry. I haven't, though I have played other games online, so I can at least speak from my experience with those games in order for us to compare and contrast with Warzone 2100's online experience.
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Founder of Wikizone 2100: http://wikizone2100.wikia.com/wiki/Wikizone_2100
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Re: Run and Hit anyway

Postby Iluvalar » 01 Mar 2012, 19:10

After more time to think about it i think it should be solved this way :

1- Do not synch queue. When a unit end an action, the next one need to be synched again.
2- Change the MRA stats to compensate the improved accuracy.
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Re: Run and Hit anyway

Postby Giani » 22 Mar 2012, 14:03

Maybe a new research for improving MRA acuracy? So until you dont research it the MRA shoots like in 2.3.9 and whit the research it shoots like in beta.
My maps: http://forums.wz2100.net/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9501
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Re: Run and Hit anyway

Postby NoQ » 22 Mar 2012, 14:12

I suggest making the new netcode researchable as well: before you research it, your units blow up randomly like in 2.3.9 (:
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Re: Run and Hit anyway

Postby Emdek » 22 Mar 2012, 14:55

NoQ, haha, but that would lead to even bigger desynchronization, unless switch would take an effect only after all players would research it. ;-)
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