Units preview. Why it should be back...

[zany]

I think Illuvar's point is that without knowing what initial research the enemy is taking, the first (and usually decisive) battle will be a game or rock, paper, scissors.

So despite both sides having the same situation, which is fair, the first battle is going to be more about luck than skill as to who wins. And, as Illuvar points out, it's then too late to adapt your research if you've chosen the wrong initial path - you're going to be lagging behind the enemy.

It took me a while before I really understood how important that fact is. It means that unless the enemy does something stupid, they've pretty much won the game, by luck rather than skill.

From all the things posted so far, an initial linear weapon research path seems the most viable based on what people have been saying. At least then if you research rock only to find that the other side has researched paper, you can quickly change to scissors during the period while your existing droids are still stronger than the enemy's initial paper research.

intelligence is everything in all RTS games if you are dumb enough not to send out scout units then it is all about luck
he just wants a built in cheat since he is not smart enough to scout first then adjust research accordingly
in the first 5 minutes of the game you should have a basic building block for starting whatever tech branch you pick. if you have advanced knowledge of what the other side is doing then it is like a giant eye in the sky with no way to block it. there is no counter to that and you can't surprise the enemy

[aubergine]

@zany: yes, but Illuvar investigated that approach as well - as he mentioned earlier in this topic, it takes time for a scout to get to the enemy base, which means that you're still researching rock until your scout gets there and then you're like "Oh poo, they're researching paper!" = you're still very much delayed in your decision to switch to scissors research. So even with scouting, as illuvar points out, nothing changes much - the game starts based on luck and not skill, which is the opposite of balanced gameplay.

I was completely against what Illuvar was saying at first, but the more I've thought it through the more I realise Illuvar is right in what he is saying (although the graphs really didn't help LOL).

I actually still don't like the fact that Illuvar is right, because it means that my gameplay style (turtling with base defences) will never succeed in a multiplayer game, however that doesn't change the fact that Illuvar is actually right in what he's saying.

Specifically, it's not a question of "do previews (or lack of them) give one side an unfair advantage" - it's actually a question of "are the outcomes of the first battles based on skill or luck?"

From what I'm seeing, Illuvar is correct in his assertion that the answer to the second, correct, question is: "luck outweighs skill".

Capitalism in the early stages of your life is certainly more about luck than skill. And I <insert your preferred choice of foul language here> hate capitalism. It would be bad if WZ goes the same way.

[cybersphinx]

Specifically, it's not a question of "do previews (or lack of them) give one side an unfair advantage" - it's actually a question of "are the outcomes of the first battles based on skill or luck?"

Or to put it another way, you not only fight your opponents, but also the techtree. And when you remove the unit preview, your disadvantage against that increases.

[zany]

the first battle does not influence the total war outcome. yes you might lose the first but then it is possible to turn the tides and you will win the next battles. it is all about choice! this is how you learn!
your capitalism example is bad. yes you have no or little choice up to a certain point but then you are free to do anything you want baring the gov throwing up road blocks in your face. there is nothing wrong with capitalism without it we wouldn't have computers to this day or millions of other inventions since someone was hand holding us all the way making our decisions for us so you rather steal technology from those that make it then use your brain and do it yourself? is capitalism perfect? no. is it the best system that is out there? yes!

[aubergine]

It's taken 5 pages of discussion, but cybersphinx has finally condensed the core of the problem down to a single paragraph:

You not only fight your opponents, but also the techtree. And when you remove the unit preview, your disadvantage against that increases.

[zany]

It's taken 5 pages of discussion, but cybersphinx has finally condensed the core of the problem down to a single paragraph:

You not only fight your opponents, but also the techtree. And when you remove the unit preview, your disadvantage against that increases.

there is no disadvantage if you play the game with strategy in mind. read the art of war.
preview just makes the game from strategy to a action game what is next remove the tech tree and have everyone fight with spears?

[aubergine]

the first battle does not influence the total war outcome. yes you might lose the first but then it is possible to turn the tides and you will win the next battles. it is all about choice! this is how you learn!
your capitalism example is bad. yes you have no or little choice up to a certain point but then you are free to do anything you want baring the gov throwing up road blocks in your face. there is nothing wrong with capitalism without it we wouldn't have computers to this day or millions of other inventions since someone was hand holding us all the way making our decisions for us so you rather steal technology from those that make it then use your brain and do it yourself? is capitalism perfect? no. is it the best system that is out there? yes!

Ok, don't get me started on capitalism, that's a discussion for another day in another forum.

On to your other point though - let's say you lose that first battle. Now you know your research path is wrong (you could have found out a little sooner by scouting, but the results would still have been the same).

The fact is that at this point, if you want to change research lines you're already several stages behind the enemy. And the enemy isn't going to stop and wait for you to catch up. Unless you play some ninja moves with your inferior droids/tech, there really is no way you can catch up now - the enemy is just too far ahead for the next few battles. Unless you can magic some extra labs and power from somewhere, you're not going to catch up. And all this time the enemy is winning battles, their droids are getting more experience (than your dead droids), their army is increasing in size and their tech is still ahead of your tech (considering you've had to start fresh on a different line of tech).

By nothing more than luck, then, the enemy has all these advantages over you:

* they now have more droids (because they are losing fewer in battle)
* their droids are getting more experience
* they have superior research
* they also know what line of research you're going to have to switch to

All they need to do is more of the same. You've got to pretty much start from scratch.

All because they had luck on their side.

[zany]

you should not put all your eggs in one basket is the point that you are missing. if you do then it is your own fault.

[Jorzi]

@Zany: If it's a hardcore game where both sides are pro players, the other one will be left with a research and power struggle which will only escalate over time. Also, you will put all your eggs in one basket, because you can't win by being moderately good at everything.
Also capitalism is not the same as democracy, it is just the extreme opposite to communism. To quote aristotle: Virtue
finds and chooses the mean.

I was completely against what Illuvar was saying at first, but the more I've thought it through the more I realise Illuvar is right in what he is saying (although the graphs really didn't help LOL).

Yeah, the only one I actually looked at was the mandelbrot matrix

But yeah, most rts:es start out with pretty generic units at first, leaving specialization to after the first few confrontations.
(aoe2 militia, starcraft marines, c&c light infantry etc..) You have a basic idea of what you'll be up against, like a warmup round, after which the real strategy begins.

[aubergine]

What if, at the start of the game, your first available buildings are scavenger factories, etc? You could churn out trikes and busses to go fight stuff, while you build up your base and do research.

[bendib]

Here's an idea, bring back unit preview, but display a randomly selected unit rather than the latest tank. That would mean that you could never know the enemy's latest tank for certain. And rushes could be invisible because it might very well display a truck!

[Emdek]

I have no idea how exactly that preview worked (screenshots?), I only know that I'm not missing it.
Also there were mentioned possible replacements, like UAVs (whatever they would be like).
Also maybe there could be introduced some kind of spy technology available early in game, but working randomly only.
Anyhow it worked it is unfair to get such data for free.

[Per]

You could start the game with a scout unit (fast, no attack ability), just like you start the game with trucks? Gives you something to do while waiting for those first buildings to sprout.

[effigy]

@zany: I feel like you're trying to reboot the conversation, and simply refusing to see the logic in anything Iluvalar has said, or you're a bit new to player vs. player.

@aubergine: Granted, I haven't tested this theory, but I'm tempted to say your turtle-style might actually be the most effective strategy with out the unit preview. Starting with Mg Towers + hardcrete, and then progress through the cannon defenses + mortor, into long range arty and vtol.... hmmm Just a guess at this point, though.

Again, when I think zapping a location of the map to spy on the enemy I'm reminded too much of StarCraft. I don't think that's a good fit for Warzone.

I can't think of another popular game with emphasis on scoutting units, but I'm sure someone else can. This seems like the cheapest fit to me, though. Perhaps a scout could be any combination of propulsion + body? AFAIK that would make it produce and travel faster. I suppose a speed / production could be given to any droid lacking a turret (if that helps)?

The most logical counter to this change in the game would probably be to ensure each weapon line has a borg/tank/vtol/structure counter. That kinda kills the current tree, imo, and erases the damage modifier table.

[Shadow Wolf TJC]

Personally, I don't particularly care about whether or not unit previewing should return, though after reading Iluvalar's explanations on why it should return, in particular, on how this impacted low-oil games in general, which tend to limit how much research players can do, to the point of specializing in only a handful of lines, I began to wonder and question just how balanced the current tech tree really is. After about 2 days of reviewing the tech tree and thinking about what needed to be changed, well... just go here and see for yourself: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8910